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  1. #1
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default What is really going on in Iraq?

    Was watching a little of a Dispatches documentary last night on UK Channel 4. It seemed to shed some light on what is going on there, and why the situation has been so hopelessly mismanaged.

    The current Iraqi government are now majority Shia like the country. And the interior ministry are co-opting Shia milita groups into the police and secret police forces. These groups are effectively state-run and supplied death squads who target Sunnis, round them up, kill them and dump the bodies.

    In response to this, the Sunnis use car bombs to blow up Shia areas/mosques/etc. The administration is forced by the chaos to co-opt militia groups but it can't control them.

    The US is in a ridiculous position of trying to stabilise Iraq by supporting a government who's survival is based on co-opted milita, supported themselves ideologically by the US' enemy Iran.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Yes, it's all a mess.

    20,000 extra soldiers isn't enough.

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    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Yeah but are those troops to stop the government death squads? To attack the Sunni insurgents? The former would be impossible, the latter would be impossible to do without creating an Iranian-centric Iraq.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    probably bored Member BDC's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    If you have enough soldiers then you don't need to support anybody...

    However, they will never have that many. I have no idea what they will do. Several politicians need to be tried for treason over this. There was no way it was accidentally bungled this badly.

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    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by BDC
    If you have enough soldiers then you don't need to support anybody...

    However, they will never have that many. I have no idea what they will do. Several politicians need to be tried for treason over this. There was no way it was accidentally bungled this badly.
    Oh yes it could. We have done almost as badly in other conflicts. The main difference is that we learned from our errors and corrected them before it became the overriding issue. This time the politicans have placed themselves in a quandry of their own making. They want to maintain power so they can not take the actions necessary to actually place more troops into the theather.

    As Tribesman might say - they completely mucked it up because they are politians first and foremost.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redleg
    As Tribesman might say - they completely mucked it up because they are politians first and foremost.
    Except Tribesman would have used several dozen laughing smilies.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho
    Yeah but are those troops to stop the government death squads? To attack the Sunni insurgents?
    Both apparently. It seems that the Iraqi PM had a serious case of denial(perhaps deliberately turning a blind eye) when it came to Shiite militias running around and murdering Sunnis in cold blood.

    From what I've read, US intelligence showed him undeniable evidence of Shiite militia involvement in what was basically tantamount to genocide against Sunnis. Supposedly, he could no longer keep his head buried in the sand afterwards and is beginning to take some meaningful steps towards disarming militias and arresting ringleaders. Now, will he go weak-kneed again and look the other way after a few token gestures? Perhaps. But seeing that Al Maliki has already taken at least some action even before the new US troops are deployed in Baghdad, I'm cautiously optimistic for the moment. Just Al Maliki recognizing the Shiite militias as a problem would be a huge step forward.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Moody
    I think a lot of this could have been avoided if we hadnt disarmed and decommisioned the Iraq army.
    Give the man a prize! For bonus credit, what were the two other unpardonably stupid things we did at the beginning of the CPA?
    Quote Originally Posted by BDC
    20,000 extra soldiers isn't enough.
    Fortunately, we're creating a second surge in Afghanistan ...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bush Commits One Additional Troop To Afghanistan

    January 29, 2007 | Issue 43•05

    WASHINGTON, DC—In an effort to display his administration's willingness to fight on all fronts in the War on Terror, President Bush said at a press conference Monday that American ground forces in Afghanistan will be aided by the immediate deployment of Marine Pfc. Tim Ekenberg of Camp Lejeune, NC.

    "I want the American people to know that I have not forgotten that our battle for freedom began in Afghanistan, rooting out the extremists of al-Qaeda and the Taliban," Bush said. "Today, I am ordering the deployment of the 325th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Private Tim Ekenberg, to the embattled Kandahar region."

    "We will take whatever measures necessary to win," Bush added. "Isn't that right, Tim?"

    Ekenberg is scheduled to arrive in Afghanistan on Friday. His duties include providing full military support for the still-tenuous democratic government, resolving potential conflicts between rival warlords, gathering intelligence for his superiors, delivering humanitarian relief to millions of Afghan citizens displaced by factional warfare, and maintaining a high level of personal physical fitness.

    Ekenberg's most vital assignment, however, will be to patrol approximately 1,200 square miles of volatile territory on the Afghan–Pakistani border and conduct search-and-destroy missions on the estimated 40,000 caves where U.S. intelligence sources believe Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda operatives could be hiding.

    The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, 2nd Lt. Jon Pinard, said that Ekenberg will be a valuable addition to his existing military assets.

    "Our Marines are the best-equipped and best-trained in the world, and I have it on good authority that Tim is an especially well-trained Marine," Pinard said. "We have requested that he receive full logistical support while deployed in this theater. We've been told that his body armor will be arriving within six months of his reporting for duty, budget permitting."

    "We welcome the 325th and have plenty of work for him over here," he added.

    The troop surge also seemed to boost morale among the thousands of servicemen and -women already on the ground in Afghanistan, who said they hoped Ekenberg would relieve some of the psychological pressures of being outnumbered by unknown and unidentifiable combatants in a foreign land far from home.

    "I can't tell you how great it will be to have someone riding with me in the APC," said Lance Cpl. Amy Patterson, the 117th Light Armored Division, referring to her M113 armored personnel carrier. "We were beginning to think America had forgotten about us. I'm glad to see I was wrong."

    While reception of Bush's announcement was generally positive, a small number of Republicans accused the president of shifting much-needed funding away from active forces in Iraq, particularly the 11,000-member 212th Army Communications and Dietary Services Brigade, now stationed outside Tikrit.

    Some prominent Democrats have expressed cautious support of Ekenberg's deployment. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) applauded the Bush administration for "at least meeting [our] demands 1/20,000th of the way."

    "This is where we should have been sending troops all along," Clinton said. "It's a promising sign that the president is finally willing to unleash on Afghanistan the full force and military might of the United States Marine Corps Private Tim Ekenberg."

    Although the 325th is forbidden from disclosing specific details of the upcoming assignment, his father spoke to reporters from the brigade's childhood home in North Carolina shortly after Bush's announcement.

    "Even if you disagree with our commander in chief, I ask that your prayers go out to Tim and that we continue to remember the sacrifices that are being made out there," Dean Ekenberg said. "Please, support our troop."

  9. #9
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Give the man a prize! For bonus credit, what were the two other unpardonably stupid things we did at the beginning of the CPA?
    Too many to name, but telling Iran "We don't talk to evil" while simultaneously leaving the Iranian (and Syrian) borders wide open certainly qualify as two unpardonably stupid things.

    I know I'm getting more cynical by the day, but I'm starting to wonder if the administration actually tried to keep the insurgency going for a while, then found it was beyond their ability to control any longer....

    Fortunately, we're creating a second surge in Afghanistan ...
    I think it speaks volumes about my confidence in the administration's ability to prosecute the war that I was actually pounding on my desk and shouting at my monitor before I thought to check the source (i.e., the Onion).
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 01-30-2007 at 17:39.
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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Give the man a prize! For bonus credit, what were the two other unpardonably stupid things we did at the beginning of the CPA?

    Fortunately, we're creating a second surge in Afghanistan ...

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Bush Commits One Additional Troop To Afghanistan

    January 29, 2007 | Issue 43•05

    WASHINGTON, DC—In an effort to display his administration's willingness to fight on all fronts in the War on Terror, President Bush said at a press conference Monday that American ground forces in Afghanistan will be aided by the immediate deployment of Marine Pfc. Tim Ekenberg of Camp Lejeune, NC.

    "I want the American people to know that I have not forgotten that our battle for freedom began in Afghanistan, rooting out the extremists of al-Qaeda and the Taliban," Bush said. "Today, I am ordering the deployment of the 325th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Private Tim Ekenberg, to the embattled Kandahar region."

    "We will take whatever measures necessary to win," Bush added. "Isn't that right, Tim?"

    Ekenberg is scheduled to arrive in Afghanistan on Friday. His duties include providing full military support for the still-tenuous democratic government, resolving potential conflicts between rival warlords, gathering intelligence for his superiors, delivering humanitarian relief to millions of Afghan citizens displaced by factional warfare, and maintaining a high level of personal physical fitness.

    Ekenberg's most vital assignment, however, will be to patrol approximately 1,200 square miles of volatile territory on the Afghan–Pakistani border and conduct search-and-destroy missions on the estimated 40,000 caves where U.S. intelligence sources believe Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda operatives could be hiding.

    The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, 2nd Lt. Jon Pinard, said that Ekenberg will be a valuable addition to his existing military assets.

    "Our Marines are the best-equipped and best-trained in the world, and I have it on good authority that Tim is an especially well-trained Marine," Pinard said. "We have requested that he receive full logistical support while deployed in this theater. We've been told that his body armor will be arriving within six months of his reporting for duty, budget permitting."

    "We welcome the 325th and have plenty of work for him over here," he added.

    The troop surge also seemed to boost morale among the thousands of servicemen and -women already on the ground in Afghanistan, who said they hoped Ekenberg would relieve some of the psychological pressures of being outnumbered by unknown and unidentifiable combatants in a foreign land far from home.

    "I can't tell you how great it will be to have someone riding with me in the APC," said Lance Cpl. Amy Patterson, the 117th Light Armored Division, referring to her M113 armored personnel carrier. "We were beginning to think America had forgotten about us. I'm glad to see I was wrong."

    While reception of Bush's announcement was generally positive, a small number of Republicans accused the president of shifting much-needed funding away from active forces in Iraq, particularly the 11,000-member 212th Army Communications and Dietary Services Brigade, now stationed outside Tikrit.

    Some prominent Democrats have expressed cautious support of Ekenberg's deployment. Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) applauded the Bush administration for "at least meeting [our] demands 1/20,000th of the way."

    "This is where we should have been sending troops all along," Clinton said. "It's a promising sign that the president is finally willing to unleash on Afghanistan the full force and military might of the United States Marine Corps Private Tim Ekenberg."

    Although the 325th is forbidden from disclosing specific details of the upcoming assignment, his father spoke to reporters from the brigade's childhood home in North Carolina shortly after Bush's announcement.

    "Even if you disagree with our commander in chief, I ask that your prayers go out to Tim and that we continue to remember the sacrifices that are being made out there," Dean Ekenberg said. "Please, support our troop."
    A second surge in Afghanistan should not be nearly as controversial as one in Iraq. I was always under the impression we went to Afghanistan purely to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden and eliminate Al Qaeda's presence or viability there. I could care less what happens to Afghanistan once that mission is complete. Afganistan's ultimate fate is irrelevant as it has zero geopolitical value when compared to Iraq.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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  11. #11
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    What is really going on in Iraq?
    Kukri the Pessimist thinks His Bushyness, George III, is looking for a quick way out of this mess, that leaves him and his party (strike that; he and his dwindling backers) some room to say: "It wasn't our fault. If Iraq had cooperated...". In other words: he, too, thinks it's a lost cause, and he's committed 20K troops as window-dressing for the final act (of abandonment). The fate of the Iraqi people is of little concern to him, and a continuing insurgency/civil war (especially one that doesn't include us as combatants) is preferable to an Anschluss of Greater Iran.

    Kukri the Optimist thinks that the new US boss in Iraq (General Petreaus) might surprise even his bosses low expectations, and find a way through to a stable Iraq. He's gonna have to break some rules ("Don't talk to evil", etc) to do it, but he has in the past shown enough gumption to try "anything that works", despite 'official policy'. I don't think he's even in-country yet, and the bulk of the 20K is still enroute (my re-deployed-to-Iraq son, and his Brigade, are sitting on-base, 20 miles north of Baghdad).
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  12. #12
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Give the man a prize! For bonus credit, what were the two other unpardonably stupid things we did at the beginning of the CPA?
    Michael Ledeen's description of the neocon doctrine of "creative destruction" seems to sum it up quite well.

    "Creative destruction is our middle name. We do it automatically...it is time once again to export the democratic revolution."
    - Michael Ledeen

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Fortunately, we're creating a second surge in Afghanistan ...
    "The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan, 2nd Lt. Jon Pinard, said that Ekenberg will be a valuable addition to his existing military assets."


  13. #13
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    When has Iraq ever been a happy, self governing country without the man on top cowing everyone to get along or else?

    Same in the Balklands. As soon as the overlords were gone the whole area blew up with the same problems that had been around for the last 1,000 years.

    Iraq can be forced to coexist, but it is not a "natural" country. If it desintegrates so be it. A powerful Iran will worry countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan as much as us. Why do we always have to be the bad guys?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  14. #14
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Well, can anybody tell me the difference between 1 Iraq with the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other versus a Sunni Iraq and a Shiite Iraq, only one with oil and the weapons that can buy duking it out? Don't forget, Baghdad has sites holy to both of them. The Shiites won't stop just because they get their own borders. And if the Kurds get their independance, the Turks are going to go nuclear. This whole thing stinks from start to finish. We should have either come in with twice the number of men and arms we thought we'd have needed, not 1/4, and made it clear from the get-go they had no option except to get along or we should have stayed the hell out. Allowing this to fester and grow like it has is despicable. I think the administration started with the right intentions, though I disagreed with them. But because they either didn't understand what they were doing or they did and milked it to gain political advantage, the administration has screwed this situation up royally.

    I will pray for peace over there, and I will pray for it's last, best hope, General Petreaus. May he be more knowledgable then any of the clowns sending him orders from Washington, and may he be wise enough and strong enough to ignore them.
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
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  15. #15
    Member Member KrooK's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is really going on in Iraq?

    Problem with Iraq is that Bush (short version of word idiot) expected that there will be society ideal like American. People who feel national identity, don't have real fairth (by real I mean strong) and complety without big social connections.
    Then they noticed that people of Iraq is completely different. That they can easy organise themselves and they want fight in the name of god. So that they established "iraqui autonomic government" - count mostly from Iraqui emigrants.
    Bush forgot to check who are those emigrants - actually big part of them were drug dealers. So we had corrupted government and american soldiers without any respect for culture and tradition of Iraq. And when they started torturing people into Abu Graib, they became nice targets :)
    Americans should do better into 2002 - they should establish new government on tribal and religious leaders. That would help them control society because family connections would be supported by respect of religion.

    Now Americans have to smile when Juba shot.
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