Questions about Seleukid units.

[MeinPanzer]

The "studs" could just be appliqué decoration, you know. Vanity was ever a soldierly vice (it's just kept away from the battlefield these days... ). They could also be the visible rivets of brigandine or "jack" type of armour, in this case presumably securing something rather "cheap and cheerful" and perishable like horn or leather pieces.

They could be, yes, but my problem is that they are based on absolutely no archaeological evidence that I know of. If there is some evidence for it that I've never seen before, then I would be very happy to see it. Otherwise, if you are going to include armour that could have been worn, then you can't really fault CA for including fantastical elements which also could have been worn.

Although I've no idea if that armouring technique was used in the region around the dates in question. It shouldn't be a particularly major stretch for folks familiar with scale (being really a reversed version of the exact same principle), but...

We discussed this at length in another thread, but there is no evidence for any Seleucid troops wearing scale or lamellar armour beyond cataphracts. It was probably too expensive for non-cavalry troops to afford, and it's clear that the Macedonian side of the Seleucids favoured old, Greek-style armour over Oriental styles. And you can't really cite the precedent of Oriental armies making widespread use of scale and lamellar because there's little evidence of the Achaemenid Persians making use of scale or lamellar beyond heavy cavalry, either.

[Watchman]

You do know that all-iron cuirasses could be made to look like honest-to-Gawd linothoraxes for example...? I would imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult to give a scale cuirass a similar "cut" and an outer layer of textile either.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Outta curiosity, as I know very little of these things, how much direct archeological evidence do we have of the armament of Hellenic kataphraktoi and their horses anyway ?

[MeinPanzer]

You do know that all-iron cuirasses could be made to look like honest-to-Gawd linothoraxes for example...? I would imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult to give a scale cuirass a similar "cut" and an outer layer of textile either.

They could, but I think there would be found many more traces of lamellar and scale armour in Seleucid contexts, then. I would also expect to see some representational evidence show scale-like texture, like that seen on many Roman-era stelai. But why would they cover scale or lamellar in linen or leather? Seems rather redundant to me, though I guess they may have done it.

Outta curiosity, as I know very little of these things, how much direct archeological evidence do we have of the armament of Hellenic kataphraktoi and their horses anyway ?

There is the largely well-preserved suit of cataphract armour from c. 150 BC from Ai Khanoum, which includes lamellar and scale. There are also late Hellenistic images of Indo-Saka kings wearing lamellar armour, which probably would have influenced local Bactrian cavalrymen.

Well FY, I doubt he makes an appearance. People can have whatever opinions they want of it, and he used to be around out here a good deal more, but he has had it with the public firing squads. We're happy to get his time on unit creation and recruitment issues, but he has had to drop other responsibilities inside the mod team because of constraints on his time while trying to finish his degree, so it's not just replying to public threads that he doesn't have the time or energy for currently. One other interesting tidbit - I don't think he has ever played the mod.

I'd very much like to hear from him, but if he can't come around, does anyone else know his reasoning for some of the above? Did he provide the team with archaeological evidence or even references for some of the above stuff?

[Watchman]

They could, but I think there would be found many more traces of lamellar and scale armour in Seleucid contexts, then. I would also expect to see some representational evidence show scale-like texture, like that seen on many Roman-era stelai. But why would they cover scale or lamellar in linen or leather? Seems rather redundant to me, though I guess they may have done it.

Wanted to preserve "that original Hellenic look" perhaps ? Damned if I know why Philip II had that iron cuirass made out like a linothorax either. Or why at one period of the Renaissance fancy looks were so important suits of full plate were made to mimic the "puffed and slashed" style of garment. Or Carl X wears a blatant imitation of Antique generals' breastplate and sash in one portait I've seen.

Fashion. It doesn't have to make any sense.

There is the largely well-preserved suit of cataphract armour from c. 150 BC from Ai Khanoum, which includes lamellar and scale. There are also late Hellenistic images of Indo-Saka kings wearing lamellar armour, which probably would have influenced local Bactrian cavalrymen.

That's not too much then. How about horse bards ?

[MeinPanzer]

Wanted to preserve "that original Hellenic look" perhaps ? Damned if I know why Philip II had that iron cuirass made out like a linothorax either. Or why at one period of the Renaissance fancy looks were so important suits of full plate were made to mimic the "puffed and slashed" style of garment. Or Carl X wears a blatant imitation of Antique generals' breastplate and sash in one portait I've seen.

Fashion. It doesn't have to make any sense.

Could be, but when you consider the representational and archaeological evidence together, it seems to point in the general direction of making use of little or no scale or lamellar armour amongst the non-cataphract troops.

That's not too much then. How about horse bards ?

Unfortunately not much at all. Some of the pieces of armour from the Ai Khanoum arsenal are thought to maybe be part of some horse armour, but those are only very fractional and scattered pieces. I would lean towards horse barding being made of scales, though.

[Imperator]

1. Why do the Thorakitai Arguraspidai (who I presume represent the Romanized infantry mentioned during the battle of Beith-Zacharia and in the Daphnai parade) wear mail face-veils? What primary evidence do you have for this?

Also, in the description on the site, why does it say that "[the arguraspides] were used during many battles, but were notoriously absent from Raphia due to their being refitted after a battle with rebels supported by the Parthians" when he Polybius does mention them at 5.79.4? It also says "They were no longer a factor when the Seleucid king fought the Romans in Macedonia, a battle at which they would have been sorely appreciated," when they are mentioned during the parade at Daphnai in 167?

2. Why do the Thureophoroi wear armour? It was very clear in the sources that the Thureophoroi and Thorakitai were distinguished from one another (as at the crossing of the Elburz range) by the one wearing armour and the other not. On top of this, the majority of the evidence for thureophoroi mercenaries within the Seleukid empire show them without cuirass or greaves but with helmets.

3. Why do the Pantodapai Phalangitai use axes as a sidearm in combat? Is there any evidence at all for this?

4. Why do you show units wearing some sort of studded leather jerkin (as in the case of Thureophoroi and Iudaioi Taxeis) when no archaeological evidence for such an armour exists? Wouldn't a common linothorax be much more accurate?

guys chill- he's got some good points, and clearly knows what he's talking about- no need to bash him, historical hyper-accuracy is why we're here. Even EB can be wrong sometimes (not often though). now, to business:
1) That is a good point, can a team member step forward and answer the man, he's got sources!
2)That seems, from the discussion, like it's a little more controversial. Again, I'd be interested in seeing how EB took this passage and came to their conclusion...
3) My guess- Pantadapai represent levies from across the empire, and the ax is a pretty universal weapon; would these relatively poor levies be able to afford swords? That's just speculation though...
4) Well, are there any representations of what armour they might have worn at all? If not, maybe EB reconstructed a unit using outside sources or a touch of imagination- we'll never be 100% sure anyway.

All in all, MeinPanzer does certainly have some seriously good questions and real evidence behind them. Let's be civil and leave it to the guys who made the mod to defend it, they know why the units look the way they do. And, who knows, maybe this guy's right. It's a dark day for EB when we can't take any historical criticism on our units and put ego before accuracy.

[Tellos Athenaios]

About point 2:
Thorax, (thorakitai would be translated as "men wearing a thorax"), is the acient Greek equivalent of armour. In Dutch it may also stand for "kuras" or "harnas" - the first being "cuirass" in English, the second suggesting that this particular stuff was made from metal plate(s). Quite different from what the Thureophoroi wear in EB, anyway.

EDIT: The Dutch word "harnas" is a bit anachronistic, since this refers to Medieval wargear - I guess you'll understand what this says about the meaning of thorax...

[MeinPanzer]

3) My guess- Pantadapai represent levies from across the empire, and the ax is a pretty universal weapon; would these relatively poor levies be able to afford swords? That's just speculation though...

First of all, I'm not sure even about EB's classification of "pantodapai phalangitai" as being equipped any differently than the pezhetairoi, or that "pantodapai phalangitai" even referred to anything other than a pezhetairoi composed of men, including Orientals, drawn from all around the empire. I'll leave that point for now, though, because I don't have a lot of evidence either way. However, I do know that I know of no evidence whatsoever for Greek soldiers wielding axes in combat. Axes are present on funerary scupture as ritualistic or agricultural tools, but not as weapons. It just seems to not have been a favoured weapon. Most representational and archaeological evidence, however, makes it clear any soldier who could afford a helmet could probably afford a sword.

4) Well, are there any representations of what armour they might have worn at all? If not, maybe EB reconstructed a unit using outside sources or a touch of imagination- we'll never be 100% sure anyway.

Within the empire, two main types of armour can be seen: leather or linen cuirasses (the kind with shoulder yokes and those leather fringes, or pteruges, at the shoulders and bottom). which were the most common, and then metal muscled cuirasses. There probably were also metal non-muscle cuirasses, but it is unfortunately almost impossible to distinguish in many sources between linen, leather, and metal armour (though this topic has been discussed quite a bit). For almost all non-officer, non-heavy troops, the linen or leather cuirass would have been the standard form of armour.

In this thread, I asked a related question about the TA and I think the response would answer your question as well.

Thanks, that actually cleared up the reasoning behind dividing the arguraspides units as was done. However, I'm still curious what "very recent archaeological evidence" they drew on, especially if it supports having a mail face veil like the one shown.

However, I find this statement:

Our TA are indeed a sort of inner elite. There are references to guard units of 1.000 men which seem to have had even higher status. Authors are not unanimous and some claim those would refer to the cavalry section of the Royal Guard, while for others they would apply to the infantry guard and they would indicate the existence of "an elite within the elite".

To be a bit strange, since many scholars consider this "elite within the elite" to have been the hupaspistai, not some other unit.

Thorax, (thorakitai would be translated as "men wearing a thorax"), is the acient Greek equivalent of armour. In Dutch it may also stand for "kuras" or "harnas" - the first being "cuirass" in English, the second suggesting that this particular stuff was made from metal plate(s). Quite different from what the Thureophoroi wear in EB, anyway.

EDIT: The Dutch word "harnas" is a bit anachronistic, since this refers to Medieval wargear - I guess you'll understand what this says about the meaning of thorax.

I have a feeling this may have more to do with a particular word for armour in Dutch being used to translate thorax; in English it doesn't have the specific connotation of being metal that I know of.

[Fondor_Yards]

Maybe you guys*by which I mean everyone* should wait till the member from that dig who did a lot of the seleucid stuff posts, we don't want this turning into the other threads now do we...

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well FY, I doubt he makes an appearance. People can have whatever opinions they want of it, and he used to be around out here a good deal more, but he has had it with the public firing squads. We're happy to get his time on unit creation and recruitment issues, but he has had to drop other responsibilities inside the mod team because of constraints on his time while trying to finish his degree, so it's not just replying to public threads that he doesn't have the time or energy for currently. One other interesting tidbit - I don't think he has ever played the mod.