Gun Powder

[ASPER THE GREAT]

Spain Vh/Vh long Champaign gun powder just showed up. Question, Catholic units only have (foot) unit's available Hand gunner, Arque, & Musk? There are no mounted troops with guns for the Europeans? By the way, which faction is heavey on the gun powder?

[Lorenzo_H]

Spain have got nice gunpowder units... I think they get the best alround (western) selection.

EDIT: Oh wait sorry I didn't read that you already are Spain...

[FrauGloer]

The only mounted gunpowder unit in catholic Europe are the Reiter(s) of the HRE. There are no "real" gunpowerder-heavy factions (i.e. almost all can be, but none has to be), but there are some that have advantages:
Spain, Portugal, Milan and Venice get Musketeers (stronger, longer-ranged than arquebus)
Turks get Jannissary Musketeers (slightly stronger than normal musketeers)
Portugal also gets Portoguese Arquebuisers (significantly stronger than normal Arquebuisers and slightly stronger than normal Musketeers)
Russia gets Cossack Musketeers (best musketeers in the game)
Moors get Camel Gunners
HRE gets Reiters (strong in melee as well as at range)

All but two factions (Scotland and Byzantium) get normal Arquebuisers, which though inferior to the units mentioned above, still have the potential to do loads of damage.

[Lorenzo_H]

Shall we therefore rank them:

1. Cossack Musketeer
2. Jannisaries
3. Musketeer
4. Portuguese Arquebuiser
5. Arquebuiser
6. Hand Gunners

This is only infantry.

EDIT: FrauGloer kindly pointed out below that Reiter are, in fact, a Cavalry unit. Forgive me; I have never played the Holy Roman Empire!

[FrauGloer]

3. Reiter

This is only infantry.

Erm no Reiters (argh I hate that anglicised plural 's') are cavalry, and I'd personally rank Portuguese Arquebuisers at least equal to normal musketeers.

[zstajerski]

Cossack Musketeers have for me performed ass teh best hand-gunpowder unit,
Venices Monster Ribault has (for me again) performed as the best "sige"-gunpowder unit for destroying enemy units, and culverins for attacking walls..
For me the best mounted-gunpowder unit was CammelGunners, but i am only now playing as HRE and am waiting for Gunpowder, so i do not know about the Reiters yet...


edit:
forgot, the best gunpowder cavalry is of course: "Mercenary Elephants (those with the gunners of course)"

[Callahan9119]

The only mounted gunpowder unit in catholic Europe are the Reiter(s) of the HRE. There are no "real" gunpowerder-heavy factions (i.e. almost all can be, but none has to be), but there are some that have advantages:
Spain, Portugal, Milan and Venice get Musketeers (stronger, longer-ranged than arquebus)
Turks get Jannissary Musketeers (slightly stronger than normal musketeers)
Portugal also gets Portoguese Arquebuisers (significantly stronger than normal Arquebuisers and slightly stronger than normal Musketeers)
Russia gets Cossack Musketeers (best musketeers in the game)
Moors get Camel Gunners
HRE gets Reiters (strong in melee as well as at range)

All but two factions (Scotland and Byzantium) get normal Arquebuisers, which though inferior to the units mentioned above, still have the potential to do loads of damage.

port arqs have better stats than musketeers, but muskets got awsome range

[Ragnor_Lodbrok]

Don't forget the Sudanese Gunners for Egypt and the Moors, they're more powerful than Musketeers, however they have a shorter range and upgraded, they look awesome.

[JCoyote]

Portuguese Arquebusiers are also superior to muskets and normal arques in melee.

[TravPaul]

Hmmmmm, Mounted gunpowder units for HRE.....I have used the hand gunners and arqs so far but mounted ones....I have something for the Mongrels then!

[Quillan]

The range is incredibly short on Reiters. The mongols will begin shooting long before you get in range.

[JCoyote]

Yeah with Reiters the pistol was envisioned as replacing the lance. It wasn't expected to have much added reach over one. The fact it was lighter and reusable was seen as the big advantage.

[Lorenzo_H]

For all those who reckon Portuguese Arquebusiers are better than musketeers, (and indeed the stats would say so);

I did a test, one unit of Muskies vs one unit of Port Arques, and the Musketeers' superior range meant that they devastated the Arques and won hands down, not even losing half the unit.

[Foz]

For all those who reckon Portuguese Arquebusiers are better than musketeers, (and indeed the stats would say so);

I did a test, one unit of Muskies vs one unit of Port Arques, and the Musketeers' superior range meant that they devastated the Arques and won hands down, not even losing half the unit.

That's not even remotely a fair test of their combat effectiveness. Pitting the units against each other tells us only which will win in the field if they happen to meet each other... and nothing at all about their performance in general. In order to suggest that one is better than the other, you have to run them each against the same enemy unit (generally something that is melee so you remove the variability of the enemy firing back), and see which fairs better. You should also do this multiple times, against enemies with various armor stats and speeds of movement, to see how each does in different situations. Only then could you correctly weigh the pros and cons of each unit and attempt to determine which one is better.

So while it's likely that longer range is a big determining factor in fights between 2 gunpowder units, I would not take it at all to mean that regular musketeers are more combat effective than Port Arquebusiers in general.

[Frankenbeasley]

Two things that are great about the Reiter in my experience are:

1) The incredible morale loss that troops they fire on seem to suffer. Once they have partial plate on I can run three or four units up right in front of the enemy and start firing and the enemy will almost always rout before the ammo is finished or the unit is dead. Their defensive strength allows me to do this even in front of mercenary pavise crossbowmen or mercenary crossbowmen.

2) They don't volley, they just keep up a constant barrage which, added to the fact that they seem to have loads of ammo, is very effective. A recent conflict with Sicily is a good example. 1 General, 3 Units of Gothic Knight and 3 of Reiter up against a mixed bag of crossbow militia, spearmen and mailed knights. Result? The general and gothic knights just sat there while the Reiter units cleared the field. Over 200 kills per unit and a complete rout in very quick time.

[Lorenzo_H]

That's not even remotely a fair test of their combat effectiveness. Pitting the units against each other tells us only which will win in the field if they happen to meet each other... and nothing at all about their performance in general. In order to suggest that one is better than the other, you have to run them each against the same enemy unit (generally something that is melee so you remove the variability of the enemy firing back), and see which fairs better. You should also do this multiple times, against enemies with various armor stats and speeds of movement, to see how each does in different situations. Only then could you correctly weigh the pros and cons of each unit and attempt to determine which one is better.

So while it's likely that longer range is a big determining factor in fights between 2 gunpowder units, I would not take it at all to mean that regular musketeers are more combat effective than Port Arquebusiers in general.

Lets face it though, with missile units, range is most important.

[rvg]

Lets face it though, with missile units, range is most important.

Not necessarily. All depends on the situation.

In an open field battle on a nice flat terrain Musketeers will tear apart pretty much anything else. On the other hand, in city assaults Archers are infinitely more useful because of their ability to fire over obstacles...

Or let's take for example the Javelin armed Desert Cavalry...with their substandard stats and very short range they are able to *easily* defeat Elephants.

Range isn't everything.

[pike master]

someone forgot to mention demi-lancers

[JaM]

The best arquebusiers in history were Spain arquebusiers. They were so famous, that people told about them that everyone of them carry 12 lives with him - they had 12 packages with prepared powder and bullet on the belt. Cronicles wrote about them that they almost never missed the target... even turkish Jannisaries were terified by them during the siege of Vienna.

[Illidan87]

Personally I really don't like gunpowder units. They never seen to be as effective as the higher tier archers, and crossbowman.

[Lorenzo_H]

My poor, dear Junior Member! You are badly mistaken...

The armour piercing, morale devastating effects of Gunpowder, and their long range, make them an extremely effective addition and the craving of any seasoned player. They are as cost effective as the next unit as well. Placing them infront of your Pikemen and Swordsmen give them a deadly first say in the battle. I once defeated an entire army of Papal Swiss Guards simply by wearing them down with Arquebusiers and a Musketeer.