Inquisitors, excommunication and interdicts

[diotavelli]

I know from reading posts elsewhere that a lot of people get irritated by Inquisitors having the ability to summarily execute senior nobility and royalty.

This is historically inaccurate (the most senior figure ever executed thus was Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Templars, who wasn't royal and was killed for political reasons), irritating and, IMO, bad for gameplay. The choice is either to hide generals from Inquisitors, to spend time on mind-boggling micro-management to improve piety or to simply put up with your best-laid plans being ruined. All in all, a shame.

What would have been far better would have been an approach closer to historical accuracy. Rather than having the Pope excommunicate whole factions, he should have been able to put them under Interdict. All religious services were banned (this happened on a number of occasions, famously to King John of England) and interaction with the country involved was frowned upon.

This could be reflected in the game by having the entire faction temporarily lose all benefits from religious buildings, have loyalty take a hit and have trade rights cancelled. It would be a serious problem that would take some management to deal with. Historically, interdict led to rebellious generals and cities, a loss of trade and a drop in morale and this would be a great challenge for players.

Excommunication could be relegated to the position it should hold. It was very rarely actioned against entire populations, focusing rather on individuals. The Pope could excommunicate anyone anytime for certain gross offences; more typically, Inquisitors visiting a province might excommunicate the entire province, its governor and/or any resident generals.

Excommunication would depend upon the piety of the individual or the level of heresy in the region. Excommunicate regions would suffer the effects of excommunication but on a smaller scale. Excommunicate individuals would lose all benefits of piety, plus take a hit on command (they might even gain dread points if they're a repeat offender) - generals would lead demoralised armies or possibly face desertions (already in the game for crusader armies) and governors would struggle to maintain law and order.

If there have to be deaths, the Inquisitors could organise auto da fé for suitable retinue figures or simply announce "heretics have been found under your command". That happened. Generals did lose soldiers under their command to execution for heresy. But the generals themselves did not die - certainly not in the numbers they can do in the game.

OK, rant over. I realise it's too late to incorporate this approach in the game - but I had to get this off my chest!

Any thoughts?

[sapi]

Well, personally i've never been troubled by inquisitors, so i fail to see most people's problem

It's an interesting idea but it could be annoying from a gameplay perspective.

[diotavelli]

Well, personally i've never been troubled by inquisitors, so i fail to see most people's problem

Any tips to share your success? Apart from always playing as an Orthodox or Muslim faction?

It's an interesting idea but it could be annoying from a gameplay perspective.

More annoying than the current, ridiculous "oops, your king has just been executed in his own capital, surrounded by cardinals, a large garrison and a happy, loyal populace"?

[sapi]

Any tips to share your success? Apart from always playing as an Orthodox or Muslim faction?

There's two plans i follow:

1) Send a diplomat to rome asap and gift a tribute of 100f/turn for 100 turns. Get an alliance if you can, but dont' push it. This way your reputation repairs itself after failing a papal mission. Quicksave before them all in case the pope is having a bad day and excomms you though

2) Let yourself get excommunicated quicky so that the pope doesn't have time to send inquisitors. Destroy the papacy, and kill every new pope that is elected until one of yours sits on the papal throne.

As Milan, i had the papacy destroyed on vh/vh at turn 4

[Lorenzo_H]

As Milan, i had the papacy destroyed on vh/vh at turn 4

lmao; who called crusades then?

As Spain, I found inquisitors came to my lands simply because I was Spain. I had a high reputation with the Pope, so I don't think it had anything to do with that. There were, coicidentally, a lot of heretics and witches though - this may have done it. I also might want to point out that at least 3 of my family members were burned for heresy and as a result I have had a huge shortage of Generals and Governers.

[diotavelli]

1) Send a diplomat to rome asap and gift a tribute of 100f/turn for 100 turns. Get an alliance if you can, but dont' push it. This way your reputation repairs itself after failing a papal mission. Quicksave before them all in case the pope is having a bad day and excomms you though

I'm playing as England currently, on H/H. I'm allied to the Pope and have been since about turn 5 (now on 35 or so). My standing has never dropped below very good and has normally been higher. I've been tributing 100f/turn ever since I made first contact with his 'Holiness'.

Yet I've lost about five generals, including my king, to Inquisitors. OK, I'm operating in French territory and the French aren't too pious (hence the presence of the Inquisitors) but I'm definitely one of the good guys.

Surely the AI should know that, even if I'm in impious territory, the guy he's about to execute is best buddies with the top fella?

[sapi]

Interesting point.

I've never run into that problem to a large extent (when i'm being good to the pope i pick on muslims only) but an inquisitor once killed my best general because i left him in italy too long on crusade :(

[Sapper]

Playing France on VH/VH I have just had my 9* faction heir executed by one of the many inquisitors visiting la belle France for their hols. He, the heir, was doing excellent work keeping both the HRE and Milan firmly in check despite their superior numbers. I am now looking around for plan B!
I have so far failed to work at my diplomatic relations with the Pope so maybe its my own fault but looking at what has happened to diotavelli as England operating in France maybe I was always going to get more than my share of inquisitors.
I agree that killing of royalty and nobility (generals) is a bit of a blunt instrument and certainly lacks historical accuracy but the power of the Church in this period should never be underestimated. We just need a rather better way of representing it.

[zarker]

I haven't had too much trouble with inquisitors, playing england and partially colonising france.

What I do find excrutiatingly annoying is that every time i attack a faction i get threatened with excommunication. Its even more annoting when a faction attacks me first, and i', just retaliating. I've only managed to get the french settlements by letting myself get excommunicated for a short time while I take 2-3 settlements simultaneously, then wait for forgiveness.

How thw hell are you supposed to expand when its always forbidden to attack somebody?

[Lord Fluffy]

My problem with the darn Inquisitors is...they keep killing my priests!!! They roam around Marakesh or Adana and killing all my priests that are trying to convert muslims. I have perfect relations with the papacy too.

@zarker: I usually invite them to attack me several times and when they get excommed, I attack with everything I got. Usually wipe out an entire faction that way. Or you can move all your troops next to their cities and attack in one turn.

[General Zhukov]

How thw hell are you supposed to expand when its always forbidden to attack somebody?

You could do what I do: wait for them to attack; they get excommed; call crusade on their capital .

[zarker]

ooh :)

That sounds promising. How do i call for a crusade?

[General Zhukov]

That sounds promising. How do i call for a crusade?

Go to the Pope tab and there is a blue/gray cross button in the upper left. If no crusade has been called recently (say 10-20 turns), you can click the blue cross to request a crusade. Your standing with the pope should be as high as possible, and you can only call crusades against Catholics if they are excommunicated.

[dismal]

I have always managed to avoid having inquisitors sent against me.

I don't do anything special. When I take a city, I build churches and make lots of priests, primarily as a means of controlling unrest. I deal with heretics decisively, and heed the pope warnings to avoid excoms. I have seen my approval drop to as low as 1 or 2 crosses, and still not had many problems with Inquisitors being sent. Again, all these things are I would do anyway just to avoid unrest.

One game I conquered France, during a period in which they had 5 or 6 inquisitors working on them, and for some reason those inquisitors just started working on me. So I appreciate what all the fuss is about.

[gardibolt]

I'm playing as England currently, on H/H. I'm allied to the Pope and have been since about turn 5 (now on 35 or so). My standing has never dropped below very good and has normally been higher. I've been tributing 100f/turn ever since I made first contact with his 'Holiness'.

Yet I've lost about five generals, including my king, to Inquisitors. OK, I'm operating in French territory and the French aren't too pious (hence the presence of the Inquisitors) but I'm definitely one of the good guys.

Surely the AI should know that, even if I'm in impious territory, the guy he's about to execute is best buddies with the top fella?

That's the danger of going after the less-than-papally-approved Catholic factions: there may a swarm of Inquisitors in their lands, and they're not picky about whether you're the one who originally caused the heresy problem.

After installing the 1.1 patch, the Inquisitors continued to attack me in France, until I did the Box-of-8 trick and killed two of them; the rest then wandered off and they haven't bothered me since.

[Quillan]

As long as I kept my pope-o-meter up near the top, I never had inquisitors sent after me. However, even that won't keep you from having problems if the inquisitor is nearby. I've inherited problems when I captured territory that was already infested with them; the inquisitors didn't leave just because it was under new ownership. I've also had problems in cramped areas like Italy. Playing Venice, and Milan had a couple of inquisitors in their territory, the papal pyromaniacs would occasionally come after me instead. I think their targeting is completely random.

My suggestions are the same as always. Station a diplomat near Rome. Keep gifting things to the Pope - mostly money - in order to keep your standing with the Pope up near the top. Always keep it as high as everyone else. If you wind up with inquisitors near you for any reason, keep some priests between your valuable generals and the inquisitor. They tend to go after the priests before generals.

[Chaos Cornelius lucius]

I've had the same problem when playing as France or when operating in traditional French territory.(Maybe the designers don't like the French ).
Curiously I have not had a Family member executed whilst they have been in a settlement or castle, only outside. Anyone else found the same?.
When an iquisitor has come sniffing around I have just put my generals in cities and they have left them alone. You do have to be careful to get the generals out of range of the inquisitors quickly when you leave the settlement tho, as I have had a few generals holed up in cities to avoid inquisitors for a few turns, then when I have sent the generals out to attack rebels etc the inquisitors went straight for them and bang one less general.

[Foz]

Anyone know if cardinals can be whacked by inquisitors? Obviously regular priests can, but I haven't seen an attempt on a cardinal so I don't know if they can be inquidated.

[Carl]

My advise would be to try playing a campaign as the Papal_States Foz. That way you can control the inquisitors and have a go at Cardinals. Train them up on Captins, then have fun. I THINK I might have whacked a Cardinal once as Papal_States, but i'm not sure if the AI can do it. Also, I couldn't hit anyone in a city when using Inquisitors, so the same might be true of the AI.

[yezhanquan85]

My advise would be to try playing a campaign as the Papal_States Foz. That way you can control the inquisitors and have a go at Cardinals. Train them up on Captins, then have fun. I THINK I might have whacked a Cardinal once as Papal_States, but i'm not sure if the AI can do it. Also, I couldn't hit anyone in a city when using Inquisitors, so the same might be true of the AI.

Well, Carl's right on the cardinal part. In fact, Inquisitors can burn ANYONE in the field. Find that iman/non-catholic general or princess annoying? Burn him/her! However, to make up for its inability to abuse this fact, AI inquisitors CAN burn generals in settlements, so be careful.

[Foz]

Well, Carl's right on the cardinal part. In fact, Inquisitors can burn ANYONE in the field. Find that iman/non-catholic general or princess annoying? Burn him/her! However, to make up for its inability to abuse this fact, AI inquisitors CAN burn generals in settlements, so be careful.

Sorry to hear it. I was kinda hoping Cardinals couldn't get whacked, b/c it would likely mean that Heresy Immunity was protecting them - which could then have been given to family members to protect them from the inquisition. Too bad, so sad.

[Horatius]

I haven't had too much trouble with inquisitors, playing england and partially colonising france.

What I do find excrutiatingly annoying is that every time i attack a faction i get threatened with excommunication. Its even more annoting when a faction attacks me first, and i', just retaliating. I've only managed to get the french settlements by letting myself get excommunicated for a short time while I take 2-3 settlements simultaneously, then wait for forgiveness.

How thw hell are you supposed to expand when its always forbidden to attack somebody?

1. The Papacy doesn't want anyone expanding unless it is against a non Catholic country, hence his warnings of excommunication.

2. The second you are no longer operating inside your own borders you are in the eyes of the Papacy an agressor, even if the situation is he surprise attacked your barely garrissoned city and you sent an army to retake it you are the agressive party. That is the benefit of having strong garrison forces instead of standing armies.

When not attacking except for Crusades I have never been excommunicated, although I have had trouble with inquisitors before, and no assassins are not the answer, they fail and then take down your chivalry.

[KHPike]

Regarding the Inquisition, shouldn't the Spanish and Portugese also be able to build Inquisitors too? At least let them be able to do so after 1478 when it started. That way we can try to burn the Pope or counter-burn his cronies. XD

[sapi]

@KHPike - an interesting idea but imagine having 3 ai factions with inquisitors

[Jonathan_Thompson]

If theyre that much of a problem you can simply squish inquisitors with 9 units

[Sentinel]

Since the patch I have seen a big reduction in Inquisitor activity. So is there really a need for CA to produce a fix, especially since the 9 armies exploits can be used when necessary

Remember that they proberly attack your enemies more than they do you. The AI factions usually just stand there when the Inquisitors shows up, and patiently waits for him to find his matches. The human player can choose actions to minimise the risks.

The inquisitor is no worst than a good enemy assassin. At least you can see the inquisitor coming. The main difference between the two in that the AI actually makes effective use of the inquisitor. Imagine what life would be like if all the AI factions were capable of using assassin efficiently.