Heat-penalty in desert/ hot climate?

[R'as al Ghul]

Has anyone playing on VH battle difficulty noticed any impact of the "heat" penalty?
I haven't noticed anything so far. It may be too low?
Supposedly, as in Medieval, your heavily armoured troops should fatigue very fast when fighting in the desert. This penalty would give the desert dwelling factions and units a considerable advantage.

What's your experience?

[Lusted]

Well from what i've seen in the unit files it is set quite high for most heavily armoured western units. They do seem to tire faster in battles because of this.

[R'as al Ghul]

Well from what i've seen in the unit files it is set quite high for most heavily armoured western units.

I've noticed that, too. But I've not noticed the effect in-game.

[Carl]

I've noticed that, too. But I've not noticed the effect in-game.

It's probably because in my expiriance, units tire so slowly that it makes very littile diffrance, also units don't seem to tire just from walking, which is diffrent from RTW.

[hrvojej]

In my experience, the units don't get tired in deserts just from standing still, as was the case in MTW, but they do seem to tire more rapidly from various actions, such as running, fighting, etc.

[CeltiberoMordred]

In MTW exhaustion was far better implemented. In RTW and M2TW is bad (imo). You can run everywhere and everytime without suffering consequences. You can't play trying to tire your enemy. You can't take advantage using lighter troops. It's just another simplification, as many others which came with RTW.

Units don't get tired in desert standing still. Units don't get tired faster in desert significantly, even in very hard when moving or fighting. The only exhaustion noticable is when infantry troops go uphill.

Heat penalty isn't attached to armour either. And it's very light. Sometimes, even heavy armoured units tire slower than light troops just because they are "hardy" or "very hardy". I.e., Dismounted gothic knights has the same exhaustion rate (aprox.) than peasant crossbowmen (in time) when running. Due to the fact that they run slower, they get more exhaustion when they have to cover the same distance, of course, but just because they have to run for another minute to reach those lighter troops.

And, as you can suppose, in M2TW armour doesn't matter when you want to run in a snowed field. What a nonsense!

Have fun.

Regards.

[Randarkmaan]

I had a battle with a friend of mine some two months ago, he was the HRE I was Egyptians. It was in a desert. I chose an army consisting almost exclusively of light troops, think it was 1 bodyguard, 2 Arab Cavalry, 2 Desert cavalry, some nubian spearmen, some desert archers, some Kurds and one unit of naffatun. Now the funny thing was that my Arab cavalry and desert archers managed to overcome three units of feudal knights, with armour upgrades and 1 unit mounted sergeants, when our cavalry fought at the flanks. And later my remaining troops made mincemeat of him, probably because of my many archers, naffatun and javelins thrown by the Kurds. I did not play hit and run, I engaged him with my forces roughly as I would have if I played a European faction, except I stopped and shot at him to make him attack so I could make full use of the javelins and naphta.

Looking back at it, I do think the heat penalties had some part to play there...

Anyway it seems many people don't understand that Islamic armies weren't as light as is sometimes assumed. But, then again battles weren't normally fought in the desert and having penalties for fighting in the desert ala MTW1 (where troops tired just from standing still) could be good there and would encourage the hiring of desert troops such as bedouin.

[R'as al Ghul]

In MTW exhaustion was far better implemented. In RTW and M2TW is bad (imo). You can run everywhere and everytime without suffering consequences. You can't play trying to tire your enemy. You can't take advantage using lighter troops. It's just another simplification, as many others which came with RTW.

Units don't get tired in desert standing still. Units don't get tired faster in desert significantly, even in very hard when moving or fighting. The only exhaustion noticable is when infantry troops go uphill.

Heat penalty isn't attached to armour either. [..]

And, as you can suppose, in M2TW armour doesn't matter when you want to run in a snowed field. What a nonsense!

Have fun.

Regards.

My experience exactly. I agree with all you said.
Thanks for sharing your ideas.
It's just sad that it isn't better implemented. What became of the promise that on VH we'd see strong effects of terrain, climate and weather that lead to tactical extravaganza?
I'll try it with modded values and post my results.

R'as

[econ21]

In MTW exhaustion was far better implemented. In RTW and M2TW is bad (imo). You can run everywhere and everytime without suffering consequences. You can't play trying to tire your enemy.

You might be right about the MTW modelling exhaustion better, but you are wrong in the last two claims. In M2TW, the VH battles setting apparently imposes strong fatigue effects on your own army - certainly my militia etc often rout very easily when trying to attack uphill. Puzz3D has argued for playing RTW with fatigue off, because the AI tends to get so exhausted just approaching you.

[R'as al Ghul]

In M2TW, the VH battles setting apparently imposes strong fatigue effects on your own army - certainly my militia etc often rout very easily when trying to attack uphill.

That's interesting. I'm also playing VH battles. I've notived that some units will show "winded" or "exhausted". What I haven't had is a situation where a unit that should win actually looses.
Do you remember any other details from that situation? I'm asking because I suspect that other modifiers like morale may give the same result as you describe. The other day I managed to rout a small rebel force of 3-4 units with 3-4 Cavalry units without killing a single man. I just had them surrounded and threatened to charge. I started a charge several times but always stopped before the units clashed. It didn't take long before they all routed.

Concerning MP I guess that when played on medium you can run everywhere without effect. I don't know how many use VH for MP battles. (Apparently you can now select a difficulty level for MP, which wasn't in the series before)

R'as

[econ21]

The case I recall was near Antioch, so terrain may have been a factor, although it was not desert. I had an army based around a large militia garrison for Antioch and attacked a smaller also rather non descript AI army. The AI camped on a gentle hill. It was rather a fun battle, as I was slowly marching many spear militia up the hill and they would quickly rout back down after taking one or two losses. I could rally them and try again, but it was touch and go with only the late arrival of some longbows swinging it (the fact that I did not wait for my archers shows how I expected to win much more easily than I did). The AI did not have much cav (or even missiles) to speak off. It was just my men breaking very easily, after only minimal contact with the enemy.

I mention it because other posters discussing difficulty levels said they often do ok on VH if the terrain is flat, but can lose unexpectedly when attacking uphill.

I attribute part of the effect to fatigue, as Palamedes did mention in a blog that fatigue and morale have bigger effects on VH battles. But I confess at the time, I was not thinking of fatigue and so did not check the status of my men.

[Slaists]

IMHO, there are several things at play here, with different levels of realism implemented in MTW II:

1. Combat penalty/bonus in desert: this is separate from fatigue. Many MTW II desert units get bonus for fighting in the desert, whereas European units get a penalty. This could explain the examples mentioned above, in which light desert armies beat heavier European ones.

2. Fatigue in desert: I actually have not seen any "extra fatigue" effect in desert for armored European units. On VH, they seem to tire in deserts just the same as in European battlefields in sync with their hardiness rating. The only pronounced fatigue effect I see is if I try to march my army uphill. But this is the same in the desert or European battlefield. IMHO, climate (as opposed to terrain) effect on fatigue was much better implemented in MTW I (snow, desert).

3. Effects of fatigue on combat ability: I have not noticed any in MTW II. These were considerable in MTW I, a tired unit would get progressively worse in defense and attack (and missile units would get less accurate and fire slower). Another oversimplification in MTW II? I want the pronounced efffect of MTW I back!

4. Effects of fatigue on movement speed: the implementation is totally unrealistic in MTW II. An exhausted unit SHOULD crawl. as it was in MTW I. In MTW II (and in Rome), they still can run like gazelles... Part of the tactical beauty of using light missile cavalry against heavy knights used to be tiring the knights out while killing some on the run. "Tiring them out" part is missing completely in MTW II, since even exhausted knights run at the same speed as fresh ones. So, if anyone asks me - I want the effect of MTW I back!

5. Effects of fatigue on morale: those seem to be in place and alright in MTW II.

[CeltiberoMordred]

You might be right about the MTW modelling exhaustion better, but you are wrong in the last two claims. In M2TW, the VH battles setting apparently imposes strong fatigue effects on your own army - certainly my militia etc often rout very easily when trying to attack uphill.

You are right: infantry marching/running uphill get excesive exhaustion penalties and tire too fast (even in medium). I don't like it either. But from my experience, in any other situation or using cavalry, fatigue rate is low, even in very hard defficulty. Regarding routing militias, maybe there is an additional morale penalty for troops fighting uphill.

So as a summary for exhaustion marching/running:

Armour: it doesn't matter.
Terrain: snow, sand, mud... it doesn't matter.
Climate: burning sun, blizzards, storms... it doesn't matter.
Altitude: it matters (and very much) if you are using infantry.

[CeltiberoMordred]

Concerning MP I guess that when played on medium you can run everywhere without effect. I don't know how many use VH for MP battles. (Apparently you can now select a difficulty level for MP, which wasn't in the series before)

R'as

In MP most battles are played in grassy flatland and medium difficulty. So exhaustion doesn't play a special role. The only units that get tired are those archers/xbows that shoot volleys for 15 minutes, and horsearchery running since the beginning of the battle without a break.

[Carl]

No offense Celtibero, but it's my opinion you've made some errors in your statements:

First, Armour DOES have an effect, but it's in a roundabout way. Instead of units suffering extra fatigue because of good Armour, they simply don't get the Hardy/Very Hardy traits most of the time. A unit that is semi-trained will be less fit than one that is well trained, however most units not in full Armour are only semi trained, whilst most of those in good Armour are well trained. This means that typically units that are semi trained but in partial Armour fatigue just as quickly as those that are well trained and in full Armour. Well trained units in partial Armour tend to have the Hardy or sometimes Very Hardy trait to represent their combination of fitness and light Armour. The same principal applies to the elite well trained unit with full Armour, they too will get the hardy or Very Hardy traits. The main problem is that elite well trained, full Armour units are more common than well trained partial Armour units.

Yes the above is a very odd way of doing it, but thats how think they took things into account.

Second, Terrain is dealt with through the heat Fatigue mostly, however I suspect their are some terrain specific effects too.

Third, heat fatigue defiantly matters.

Fourth, Correct.

The reasons terrain and heat seem to have no effect are simple:

1. Units never suffer any fatigue at all when just walking, you can walk them across the map and back and their fatigue state won't change.

2. even when running or fighting, units fatigue very slowly to begin with, even without the Hardy/Very Hardy traits, as a result it takes a good 3-4 minutes of continuous running/fighting before you'll see them even drop to "warmed up" from "fresh".

Overall result of 1 and 2: as long as you act smart and don't run your units everywhere or get them embroiled in fights to the last man, your almost guaranteed to never really tire most of your units out, add in Hardy or Very Hardy and it becomes nearly impossibbile to tire out most of your units in the course of a normal battle, only a couple of hour long slug-fest is likely to do that, and maybe not even then if you get the opportunity to rest your units.

[Slaists]

1. Units never suffer any fatigue at all when just walking, you can walk them across the map and back and their fatigue state won't change.

incorrect: units suffer heavy fatigue penalties when just walking uphill, especially in the steep mountains (like the Alps, Pyrenees, etc.)

[Carl]

incorrect: units suffer heavy fatigue penalties when just walking uphill, especially in the steep mountains (like the Alps, Pyrenees, etc.)

woops, shold have mentioned steep terrain, I know for a fact though that walking across flat terrain DOES NOT tire them out because i've walked across a mostly level maps-width with no fatigue changes on simpile militia units, and they where in desert (one of the non-desert factions too so...).

[CeltiberoMordred]

No offense Celtibero, but it's my opinion you've made some errors in your statements:

No offense taken . Correct me everytime you find I'm wrong.

First, Armour DOES have an effect, but it's in a roundabout way.[...]

I find this as an attempt to justify a bad fatigue system. Sincerely, I doubt CA gave "hardy" of "very hardy" attribute thinking in how heavy is the armour.

Norman knights, armour 9, very hardy.
Famiglia Ducale, armour 9, very hardy.
Tsar Guard, armour 10, very hardy.
Polish Guard, armour 10, very hardy.

Knights Templar, Hospitaller, etc: armour 9, just hardy.
Boyar sons: armour 7, hardy.
Dvor cavalry: armour 7, hardy.
Hungarian nobles: armour 6, hardy.

What I find is that the criteria to give "hardy" or "very hardy" attribute is how "elite" the unit is and not the amount of metal they wear: those which highest armour usually get the "hardy" or "very hardy" attribute.

The fact is armour doesn't play any role in exhaustion. It's easy to test, simply take 2 similar units in a custom battle (militia spearmen, i.e.), one without upgrades and another with 3 armour upgrades. Let them march, run, fight, etc. You can see how the exhaustion rate is the same for both. Those who played the old MTW know well the effect of giving armour upgrades to units in desert or snow, for example.

Same if you manually mod the edu file and give extra armour points to any unit. They will tire exactly as they did without the armour boost.

And yes, the heat status exists, I never denied it, but it's too small to be worth keeping it in mind as an important factor in battle. And, as I stated above, Heat doesn't affect units when standing, what it's wrong. Wearing a full plate in a summer day in desert is the best way to be cooked: you would literally boil inside it. That's not true in M2TW, where you would stay undefinitely fresh.

Regards.

[Carl]

What I find is that the criteria to give "hardy" or "very hardy" attribute is how "elite" the unit is and not the amount of metal they wear: those which highest Armour usually get the "hardy" or "very hardy" attribute.

That was exactly my point TBH.

Their are VERY FEW units not wearing Little Armour that are pro, or elite troops. Those that their are are almost exclusively Very Hardy/ Hardy.

I'd also say you chose some VERY bad examples their. ALL Cav get Hardy or Very Hardy as Standard and most missile Cav gets Very Hardy, it's part of their advantages over infantry.

I can't personally dispute your claim on my own knowledge or sources, however when this last came up, someone did and quite convincingly, i believe the even quoted contemporary sources. The basis of the argument however was that the combination of tabards they worse, actual conditions, and the fact that the cooking effect of Armour was often exaggerated means the heat exhaustion from just standing still or doing light things wasn't as bad as was made out, it was still their, but they wouldn't "cook" as some sources claim.

Sadly i can't find that thread now, if someone else knows where it is, could they point me at it?

NOTE: the "Local Conditions" bit is my own, but boils down to the fact, (pardon the pun), that even people from that region in Little Armour would suffer heat stroke doing strenuous work at midday, the best times to fight would have been sunset or sunrise. We had to cover other cultures in Geography back at high school, and one of the things I remember learning is that people in hot climates avoid hard work around midday as it's simply too hot to do anything much at that time of day. Thus an army that fought at midday would probably not care if it had Armour or not, they'd still get heatstroke long before the battle was over.

Lastly, i don't agree with them suffering tiredness when stood still, regardless of weather it's realistic or not. The simple fact is, that would totally gimp the western factions against the eastern ones as they'd never have a chance if the AI controlled the western faction. it's programed to fight by first expanding it's arrows, then walking up to the opponent with infantry whilst the Cav run on ahead. That kind of attack strategy would be suicidal with the kind of exhaustion you suggest. The AI could be altered to attack better, but you'd still have the issue that either western armies would be at a severe disadvantage against eastern ones unless the Eastern ones where made intrinsically weaker. Both situations may be fine for the campaign, but aren't good at all for custom/quick battles, and totally unacceptable for MP, (we do have to consider it, even if we don't play it).

That is in fact probably why heat and climate effects are so minimal, they wouldn't balance correctly in modes other than the SP campaign. Likewise the lack of walking existing effects is probably for the AI's benefit, i remember the AI badly tiring it's troops in RTW if i made it walk toward me as it never bothered to rest them en-route.

[hrvojej]

So, if anyone asks me - I want the effect of MTW I back!

Yep, the battles against several (Muslim) stacks in deserts used to be quite a challenge in MTW.

Maybe I'm imagining this because of STW and MTW, but I seem to have noticed that units do tire faster in deserts, and that exhaustion has an effect on both running speed and combat effectiveness. However, these effects are much milder than those in MTW, and are therefore of little tactical consideration.

[Carl]

I noticed in RTW that Exahusted units would only run occassionlly, even when set to run, I think it's the same in M2TW, but when walking think they are the same regardless of Fatiguem, it defintlly effects morale quite badly, and expiriance makes me belive that the various morale states impact actual fighting ability too.

[crpcarrot]

just want to point out that fatigue affects should be included in medium difficulty onwards at the vert least from hard. why only VH ???

and i agree MTW did it much better.

@Carl

i think you said that standing still in the sun doesnt affect fatugue.

i'm sorry but whreever that info came from is totally rubbish. I come from sri lanka standing in the mid day sun is a good way of dehydrating yourself and prbably passing out. and no sri lanka has no deserts so the affects would be much more pronouced in a desert.

leaving a person out in the open in a desert was a metod of torture. i hardly think it would have been practiced if just lying in the sun had no affect. your do not wear tight fithing clothes in hot climates they make u hot whatever the material is made of. all the padding needed to get into armour would increase the affect of heat.

the fact that western armies were crap in the deseart was the main pint in MTW. if you were being attackedan losing to a huge invasion force. ou drew them out in the open deseart and salughtered them with you light troops. it added a extra element of strategy to the game.

the fact that the AI cant handle it is an excuse. if the game has not been programmed properly it should be fixed not dumbed down. i'm AI expert and i dont disect games but the AI in MTW didnt lose all the time. and it would matter in AI v AI battles cos they would be auto calced anyway. only autocalc would need to be adjusted.

[Moah]

4. Effects of fatigue on movement speed: the implementation is totally unrealistic in MTW II. An exhausted unit SHOULD crawl. as it was in MTW I. In MTW II (and in Rome), they still can run like gazelles... Part of the tactical beauty of using light missile cavalry against heavy knights used to be tiring the knights out while killing some on the run. "Tiring them out" part is missing completely in MTW II, since even exhausted knights run at the same speed as fresh ones. So, if anyone asks me - I want the effect of MTW I back!
.

I have to say I haven't found this. Exhausted units will *refuse* to run in my experience, and insist on walking, which can be a disaster if you're counting on them getting somewhere quickly. Although you press the run icon on 2 units, with 1 tired, the tired/exhausted unit will start walking while the fresh troops skip gaily ahead.

As Scotland I'm using a lot of pike militia and archers, with some highland nobles as back up. the pikes slowly walk to the enemy lines while the nobles in reserve run to plug gaps, flanks when required etc (obviously I have cav too, but they're often elsewhere slaughtering enemy archers, artillery, etc)

I have noticed on several occassions (sometimes with considerable panic)that the highland nobles that I want to run to cover that vulnerable flank are strolling, just because they're tired out running to and fro.

[Slaists]

The fact is armour doesn't play any role in exhaustion. It's easy to test, simply take 2 similar units in a custom battle (militia spearmen, i.e.), one without upgrades and another with 3 armour upgrades. Let them march, run, fight, etc. You can see how the exhaustion rate is the same for both. Those who played the old MTW know well the effect of giving armour upgrades to units in desert or snow, for example.
.

well, in another thread, in which people were discussing the shield bug, Capt. Fishpants (CA) argued that it would be better to put half of shield value into armor, another half into defense skill (to fix the shield problem). In his explanation, he mentioned that putting the whole shield value into armor would cause the heat effect to be too high for otherwise unarmored units.

This comment kind of implies there actually is armor related heat effect. I guess, the only way to test it would be putting an insane amount of armor into a unit and march it in the desert along with a unit of the same stats but no armor.

[Slaists]

@Carl

i think you said that standing still in the sun doesnt affect fatugue.

i'm sorry but whreever that info came from is totally rubbish. I come from sri lanka standing in the mid day sun is a good way of dehydrating yourself and prbably passing out. and no sri lanka has no deserts so the affects would be much more pronouced in a desert.

What Carl meant was that in MTW 2, standing in the heat does not tire units. In MTW I, it did.