MP Losing Appeal

[Demok]

[Wolf_Kyolic]

lol

Where is Mizu Sp00n btw? He used to play with me. :)

[Lusted]

The root of most of the problems in my view is modding. In terms of the current gaming industry stances and implementations of "moddability", M2TW is just about rock bottom.

Ahahhahhahahha!

Whilst M2Tw might not be the best in terms of modding, it certainly isn't rock bottom. I know of several games that are completely unmoddable with no official support of modding at all, not even the support CA are providing. It may not be greast, but it's not the worse.

[Orda Khan]

This is what MP needs? Nothing changes, the same bitter, old rivalries, the same little digs being posted hoping to gain brownie points. Many times in this thread alone, people have suggested moving on, might I suggest that some of the posters here do the same? How about you guys let old disputes die? How about some of you forget 'what you were told' about others and start thinking for yourselves eh?

.......Orda

[Fenix7]

I support Orda Khan and Elmo's words.

The last few statements are just proof that a few certain individuals will never allow any discussions to occur on M2TW without disruption. A personal vendetta against CA and lack of maturity on their part, will not allow their ego's to let any discussion happen on improving the M2TW engine. These guys have given up. I was able to overcome that, by leaving RTW and playing other games. I came into M2TW, with a different perspective and knowing I wasn't going to get another MTW1. A suggestion from a friend (T1) convinced me to try M2TW and I found I could still enjoy playing the game. I know it just grates on a few people that someone would have the audacity to say they enjoy something other than the original engine, but that is the way it is. Until they grow up, they will continue to disrupt any and all discussions.

- STW engine
- MTW engine
- RTW engine
- MTW 2 engine

Each engine is different. Thought there is very few people who were able to get best out of it in each of them. One of top 10 STW players once mentioned that with a new serie there are new game engine regulations and of course you have to begin from the start. This is one of the main issues which scare people not to get involved in the new serie. Another thing what made TW series special from multiplayer aspect were people who played it. One of the reasons why MTW/VI revival is so successful.

RTW was not made for my taste - feelt too much arcade; yet this is my opinion and I don't have any need to post this each time when I make a post here or persuading anyone why I didn't like RTW. With the 1.5 patch and good rule set with proper denari level matches offered very balanced and good matches. Napoleonic mod for RTW was simply great despite the engine was not STW or MTW one.

As I've stated previously MTW 2 is not perfect game atm becaus of bug issues. It's game engine is promising thought. Why? Becaus manouvering your army doesn't feel arcade for me. Yet again this is my opinion and I don't want to force it to anyone. However in future I would not like to see any more theoretical comments about TW engines and which is better. What I would like to see are comments on how to improve gameplay - different denari levels, other ideas, anything like this.

As an owner of MTW 2 I don't want to read about issues which has nothing to do with MTW 2. I don't remember I've ever seen anyone browsing around existing STW and MTW forums on this site where he would be constantly claiming (read: posting) how RTW or MTW 2 engine are better then existing STW or MTW one. I don't mind if someone states that he still prefers MTW engine..but from where comes the need to mention this in almost every post?

If I'm nost mistaken this supposed to be MTW 2 forums and I doubt that people who actually purchased MTW 2 and are playing it (or waiting for 2nd patch) are not interested to read theoretical comments which TW engine is superior.

p.s. Lusted thank you for your efforts and your contribution to MTW 2. Your work is noticed.

[Puzz3D]

If I'm nost mistaken this supposed to be MTW 2 forums and I doubt that people who actually purchased MTW 2 and are playing it (or waiting for 2nd patch) are not interested to read theoretical comments which TW engine is superior.

My posts aren't for them. I'm in the group who didn't buy the game. I'm going to post why I didn't buy it, and respond to every post claiming something is improved when it's not.

[econ21]

OT: but what is the civil war bug in RTW?

[pike master]

not really a bug just an inconvenience

[Whacker]

Ahahhahhahahha!

Whilst M2Tw might not be the best in terms of modding, it certainly isn't rock bottom. I know of several games that are completely unmoddable with no official support of modding at all, not even the support CA are providing. It may not be greast, but it's not the worse.

I wholeheartedly agree that M2TW isn't the worst in that regard, but it still really really stinks. I didn't put this in my huge post earlier but I strongly suspect that it's because CA is on the fence so to speak. They tout moddability as a selling point of the game, but they don't put as big of an emphasis on it as I'd expect to see given other's publisher's marketing practices. In terms of the actual game yes we can change many aspects of it, but it's a real kludge with no real support or direction of any kind, the proverbial "square peg in a round hole". Given what we have to work with, I believe that CA doesn't mean for us to ever have the level of control or ability to work with the game as this "industry standard" bar that I'm holding it up to, again based on their repeated statements about "protecting intellectual property." I also suspect that this might have something to do with cheating protection in terms of multiplayer, if people have access to the client code they can often see ways of exploiting the smallest things. In short this is CA "having their cake and eating it"... CA needs to choose if they're going to fully support game modding and really commit and give us a REAL implementation, or decide that they don't want that to be a part of the game and lock it down nice and tight, this halfarsed middle-of-the-road stuff right now just doesn't cut the mustard. I hope this makes sense.

I still firmly believe that by (potentially) abandoning an aging game engine, switching to a client/server game executable model, distributing the clientside sources, an SDK, providing official support and documentation for it, and fully separating the MP and SP aspects of the game, they can address the majority of the issues that players seem to have such as MPer's desire for better game flexibility, balance, and lag/netcode issues. Again this is just some educated guesswork and a suggestion, it might be a great idea it might not, switching engines takes time and money and if not well managed it could quickly fall to pieces. Then again part of running a successful business is knowing when to take calculated risks and cut your losses when there's better options available and your customers are chomping at the bit for some changes. MPer's complaints about it being tacked on or an afterthought seem to be somewhat justified, but again I don't think it has to be that way. I see a lot of potential for CA in terms of expanding their customer base and appeasing current/former fans by going down a route like this.

My previous post was a lot of pent up frustration at CA and even some at the gaming community, a little tongue-in-cheek, and honestly all well intended. I hope everyone else reading it found it as such.

[caravel]

Interesting thread, I have followed this thread for some time, only now have I decided to post my humble contribution.



It occurs to me that in this case, the whole issue is simply a matter of opinion, though Puzz3D does state some undeniable flaws in the Rome engine. The point I do disagree with though is that the new engine is simply inferior and case closed. That is simply a matter of opinion. I can only comment on RTW, MTW and STW, and in the cases of those, I have always found that battle AI has been far worse in RTW, and that it is quite bugged. Most of the battlefield glitches in RTW that really took the polish off the game, were pathfinding and clipping faults. It is simply no where near as solid as in STW and MTW, but I believe this is down to 2D sprites, which are much more manageable than 3D ones. Settlements on the battle map in STW/MTW were also much more simplistic so any pathfinding errors would not have been exposed. In terms of it's advantages I see it as a step forward towards achieving a much better physics model. 2D sprites with all of their limitations have had their day.

The permeable (if that's the right word?) formations in RTW/M2TW are simply better, more realistic and add a new dimension to the solid block units in STW/MTW battles. With this model the effects of cavalry charges can be realised - though they need to be delicately balanced and adjusted to deal the right kind of damage in the right circumstances. The new engine has potential in many areas, and simply scrapping it off and going back to the old one is not progressive. Again though, a system is much more complex.

I seriously doubt that CA will produce a game that will suit the historical wargamer, the MP player, the casual SP player, the RTS gamer and the old STW/MTW vets all in one. That game is never going to happen. The problem is that whatever changes are implimented, someone will love it, and someone else will hate it. The answer to this is for CA to produce an easily moddable vanilla game with extremely open single and multiplayer capability, and for modders to create a more historically accurate game for the SP history/realism buffs and another for the MP community or multiples/combinations of these. For the MP community Half-Life had it's counterstrike, TW also needs it's counterstrike. In order for this to happen support for modding needs to be more than just a casual afterthought. This is where CA are really not up to speed IMHO. If they can drastically improve modding support in the next games, I can see a lot more mods becoming available, specifically those taliored towards MP players.

This thread would do better to continue in a constructive manner. I have tremendous respect for Puzz3D and his deep knowledge of the TW series, but I really think he's wasting his time here, going over the same details again and again as to how the older game was so much better than the new. I really do believe that to be a futile pursuit, and it will not win any of the people in this thread over to the old games. It's kind of like me telling my neighbour that his new car is very inferior to the old model they made a few years back. It's not useful, doesn't help him, the car company are not going to go back to producing the old model again, they're not going to make the new model similar to the old one. So really I'd be wasting my time, and probably annoying my neighbour in the process.

[Puzz3D]

I really do believe that to be a futile pursuit, and it will not win any of the people in this thread over to the old games. It's kind of like me telling my neighbour that his new car is very inferior to the old model they made a few years back. It's not useful, doesn't help him, the car company are not going to go back to producing the old model again, they're not going to make the new model similar to the old one. So really I'd be wasting my time, and probably annoying my neighbour in the process.

Suppose your neighbor hasn't purchased that car yet. Would you still withold the information? He's not going to get that information from the people selling him the car.

The subject of the thread is that MP is loosing appeal. Based on the figures posted, I made the observation that original STW had better MP participation since I used to keep track of it. Apparently there aren't many playing RTW, or BI, and I know there aren't many playing MTW. So where is everybody? M2TW supposedly sold better than STW which was just a niche game aimed at a small market.

[caravel]

Suppose your neighbor hasn't purchased that car yet. Would you still withold the information?

No, I would make him aware of what I thought of it, even though it wasn't my business, after which if still goes ahead and buys it, then that's his problem really. If/when he returns to me and says: "hey this car is great, I don't have a problem with it, it works for me" etc. I won't persist in trying to persuade him that it's not ok, and that back in my day there was an earlier model which was better, as that would be fruitless. As I've said above Puzz3D, I respect your knowledge of the TW games and agree with many of the opinions you express, but in this case I feel that you're out on a limb, wasting a lot of time and effort trying to preach to people that in all likelihood probably won't listen to you anyway, as they have their own opinions and takes on this, which they will stick to just as firmly as you are sticking to yours. This whole thread feels like two opposing religions trying to convince each other as to which is the true faith.

[TosaInu]