Hastati to triarii, natural promotion

[mightilyoats]

I've been reading the descriptions for specifically the hastati, principes and triarii. From those, it seems that a young soldier would start off as a hastati, get promoted to principes and retire his career as a triarii. It does not make sense to have a 120 year old unit of hastati being described as "young recruits".

It would make the game quite interresting if you could ONLY recruit hastati. Then, once they reach an experience level of say three bronze chevrons, you can upgrade them to principes (at the cost of two experience). The same would go for the other factions: militia hoplites -> levy pikemen -> phalanx pikemen etc.

Alas, I can't conceive of any way that this can be applied in a mod...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hi,
It would be a nice idea, however the game engine does not allow it at all. There is unfortunately no way of it been applied in a mod either as you have said. I suppose it could be done through a script, but it would only work on the starting units. I think that the best way you can simulate this is by disbanding your Hastatii when they get to three chevrons and training a unit of Principles in their place, the same for Principles when they get to three chevrons by training them as Triarii. I hope this helps and cheers!

[mightilyoats]

Ha ha, I know I won't follow those rules... It is more of a sugestion to improve the game. It will add a sort of role playing element to non family member units.

Being a programmer myself, I also realise that no patches to RTW will ever enable this, but... what about Rome 2 Total War?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

It's possible, but I doubt it will be implemented. People would rather have three separate units instead of having one unit that upgrades. Also Triarii wield spears making them spearmen rather than Heavy/Light infantry like Hastatii/Principles. This could cause the player/AI a disadvantage of not having spearmen, henceforth becoming victim to cavalry, till their Principles became Trarii which could take a very long time.

[mightilyoats]

The AI could always cheat. This is meant to make it a challenge for the player.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Yes, however if the AI cheats then players often feel rather wrong done for by the developers and they get complaints ect. If it was to be implemented it would probably be an option in the game menu whether to have on or not to have it on, some players may not like it. As I have said, some players often prefer to have a large array of units rather than one unit that upgrades.

However there is a way to get round this. Hastatii, Principles and Trarii could be trainable at the start, but if unit of Hastatii gets to three chevrons then it becomes a unit of Principles, which then, under the same circumstances, could become a unit of Trarii.

[mightilyoats]

I guess this is the same as locking your camera to the general's view point. I am sure the AI doesn't do that to itself.

I would like the unit promotion though. It makes sense to me.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

So would I, yet I just cannot see the CA making it.

[Poulp']

How about a box to check in the starting menu, "Promoting Units" ?
Just between "manage all settlements" and "long/short campaign".

[LuckyDog Trojan]

A promotion routine would be cool, but I still like the idea of being able to choose/build whatever unit types I desire or need. The way I see it, the potential increase in the experience rating is sort of like a promotion in itself.

[antisocialmunky]

I just build almost exclusively Hastati since they're just one level above town watch. You can raise them everywhere, retrain your veterans quickly, and they're only a little weaker than Principles. I just consider my silver chevron guys principles and my gold shevron guys Triarii.

[Axelus]

Just because you are having a unit of hastati for about 120 years, doesn't mean it's the same soldiers in the unit. If you retrain the unit, its actually not the same individuals anymore. You can think of the unit as a administrative thing really, where its the hastati unit you always have, not really the soldiers individually.

[lottrbacchus]

excellent answer, axelus!

the other way could be done as- unit of hastati becomes a unit of pricipes after x years (retaining exp) and then becomes triarii after a while. and then automatically disbands a little bit later as all the guys become too old to fight. but i think that would be a horrible idea myself.

[Laman]

Well they weren't really promoted in the field. The Romans raised one or more Legions when needed and disbanded them after they had done their fighting, they were not a standing army. The way to represent this would have that when you raise your legion you automatically get a some Hastati and Principes and a few Triarii, which can't really be done in this game.

And the example given when it would go for other factions doesn't hold, since those units were not related in the same way as the Hastati, Principes and Triarii are. Militia Hoplites are well militia, raised locally to defend against local threats when needed, Levy Pikes are levied whenever the King wants to go killing enemies and feels he needs more then just a few elite troops, while Phalanx Pikemen/Phalangites are professional soldiers.

[César Victor]

I guess the same could be said about Legionaries. It's stupid how you can just recruit First Legionaires, Praetorian and Urban. I would have been better if say, they earned new titles and benefits the more chevrons they gained. For example, a cohort with the highest rank within an army becomes "First" cohort. I also think that the general should of been anle to dismount (ala the Knights in MTW), and the unit become Praetorian legionaries.

[antisocialmunky]

Just because you are having a unit of hastati for about 120 years, doesn't mean it's the same soldiers in the unit. If you retrain the unit, its actually not the same individuals anymore. You can think of the unit as a administrative thing really, where its the hastati unit you always have, not really the soldiers individually.

Meh, within the scope of gameplay it is. Its just the way I like to use my units and its the closest you can get to ingame promotion without pulling your out of the field, disbanding them, and building another unit to replace.

[mightilyoats]

This might have been a bad idea from the start... The game would be insanely difficult if your units died of old age, fever etc. Or if they broke their legs while pushing an onager up a hill while marching through the Gallic country side looking for that last enemy settlement...

Lets rather considder this. You train a Hastati, but they never become Principes. They get a named Sergent (like in MTW). If they perform well, the Sergent gets some kind of promotion and the unit gets called something like "Veteran Hastati" and then later maybe "Hastati Elite". These titles can then grant them morale bonusses or whatever.

I know you get the same effect from the exp. chevrons, but I am looking for a roleplaying element on my units, because I sometimes get attached to specific units in a marching army and I would like to keep track of them.

[antisocialmunky]

If you get some first cohorts, you can name them(I think).

[Captain Fishpants]

I seem to remember that, at one point, we did discuss having a "promotion" or succession system for Hastati->Princeps->Triarii and decided against it.

In order to make it explicit, it would have been necessary to retrain troops and replace them with the next version up; so far, so clear. Simply having Hastati replaced by Princeps at the right time could have been confusing -- and possibly annoying if the new unit didn't suit your playing style. Telling the player that this was happening would have generated message spam. Those issues could have been avoided by getting the player to manually deal with the retraining, but that is micro-management that would have been damn annoying in a long game.

It also takes away an element of player-controlled progression in the game in terms of getting to the "new toys" as you go up the tech tree. One of the micro-rewards of playing any strategy game is getting to build new units. It also takes away player choice, always an important consideration. A good game allows you to experiment and do what you want, not what you are being railroaded into doing.

Either way, the replacement of one sort of unit by another would have required special case code, and that's usually a bad thing.

Maybe next time we'll do things differently...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Nice to see CA staff about!

[mightilyoats]

Thanks Captain Fishpants. I understand your reasoning behind it, well put.

I came up with this when I realised that some of the units I use in a campaign will be with me for the entire campaign, in my main army as it gets passed down from general to general. This is especially true for archers. It feels kind of sad to let go of the unit in favour of a "better" unit.

But hey, maybe next time you creative guys will come up with a really cool way for us to reward our most loyal and dependible units. Make us see that "hey! this lowly hastati unit has survived 30 battles! They shall henceforth be known as veteran hastati!"

[econ21]

In a future TW game, the issue of "promotion" could be handled across the board by introducing some kind of "upgrade" mechanic whereby a unit gains new skills, equipment or abilities as it gains experience. Civ4 does that in a very abstract "gamey" way, but it may have a role in a more realistic historical wargame like TW.

For example, in a Napoleonic wargame, a French line regiment may be able to change formation faster or fire more accurately as it moves from green to veteran. (RTW had something like this, with later Roman units firing pila more promptly than earlier ones, as well as having access to tetsuodo formation). It might even be able to be "upgraded" to Young Guard, then Middle Guard and ultimately Old Guard. This kind is a sort of "levelling" mechanic that might be fun and intuitive to many players. It might help players get more attached to their individual units and, in moving away from the cannon fodder paradigm, assist CA in meeting their goal of fewer, more decisive battles.

It would be even easier to do in some other periods of history, which had more unit variety than Napoleonic warfare (M2TW has a fairly rich progression in troop quality and equipment).