Reproductions/Recreations of Ancient Music

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I keep looking for more modern reproductions of ancient music to put in my personal build in addition to the EB soundtrack and I'm wondering if other people do the same thing. Particularly, I'm wondering about some culture groups more than others. There are a number of modern cd's that are attempts to recreate what ancient greek music was like - and I just got one of them in the mail from amazon.com today: Melpomen, by Conrad Steinmann, made in Austria. It's about half/half vocal/instrumental. Some of the pieces are a little jarring, but some are perfect. Anyone else tried some of the other ones?

I've got a few different Tuva cd's, which gives me plenty of steppe-type music.

The one I'm wondering most about is "barbarian" culture music. Are there any *good* cd's out there that really attempt to recreate what celtic music was like? Of course if you do searches for celtic music you get tons and tons of things that are not appropriate in the least. I do have some mp3s by Krauka (Vikinga seidur) that are really good, but I can't handle all of the pieces on the cd. I know they've got a couple of other cd's too, but the samples I've heard online make them sound much more modern. Anyone know about any other attempts to recreate any of our barbarian factions' ancient music?

[Brightblade]

Duuude, you don't have the soundtracks to Troy and Gladiator in the background? Nothing like hearing the first opening scene music to Gladiator when you are establishing Imperium Romanorum in the German forests!

Joking. Really.

My mom has some Greek music from her visits to Athenai that I hate her for... it's all orchestra, but supposedly some stuff may be applicable. I'll try and dig through her stash.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Some of it just sounds like modern greek music (traditional greek, but modern) to me - but some sounds much more authentic (not that I know a terrible amount about either, but I know enough to be dangerous - to know that one is one and the other is the other ).

I recently made a post on the internal forum where I linked to a number of different places on the web one can find music like this (many of these have sample tracks or parts of tracks online):

Melpomen: Ancient Greek Music by Ancient Greek Anonymous, Conrad Steinmann, Conrad Steinmann, and Ensemble Melpomen (Audio CD - Jan 10, 2006)
http://www.amazon.com/Melpomen-Ancie...id=1170517688/

Music of the Ancient Greeks by Ensemble De Organographia, Anonymous, Athenaeus, and Euripides (Audio CD - Mar 24, 1997)
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ancient-...id=1170517688/

Musique de la Grece Antique by Greek Anonymous, Gregorio Paniagua, and Madrid Atrium Musicae (Audio CD - Oct 10, 2000)
http://www.amazon.com/Musique-Grece-...id=1170517688/

Music from Ancient Rome, Vol. 1: Wind Instruments by Gaetano Delfini, Luce / Ravenstein, Natalia van Maioli, Walter Maioli, and Walter / Maioli, Luce Maioli (Audio CD - April 22, 1997)
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ancient-...id=1170517688/

Music of the Ancient Sumerians, Egyptians and Greeks by Ensemble De Organographia, Philip Neuman, and Gayle Stuwe Neuman
http://www.amazon.com/Music-Ancient-...id=1170517688/

The Cyprosyrian Girl: Hits of the Ancient Hellenes by John Curtis Franklin
http://www.kingmixers.com/AncGreekMusicFragments.html (a few full mp3s are online there - some are a little strange for sure, and sound more like 1970's hippie stuff )

Northern Europe during the Roman Era
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/emu005.htm

E tempore emergo
http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/cds/emu003.htm

Musica Romana
http://www.musica-romana.de/de/cd.html

Music of Greek Antiquity
Petros Tabouris et al.
F.M. Records PAIAN 653
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003YH4/

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Krauka -
http://www.krauka.dk/musik02.html

Also have just been told about Prehistoric Music of Ireland - they have a few mp3's of sections of tracks on there. Very authentic stuff.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeag...available.html

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If anyone has heard any of these or has any of these, your opinions on them would be much appreciated.

[oudysseos]

I know of one web resource that might interest you, if you don't know about it already.

www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agm/index.htm

That page also contains links to other ancient music sites and some ancient greel pronounciation guides.

Hope it helps

[keravnos]

I know of one web resource that might interest you, if you don't know about it already.

www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agm/index.htm

That page also contains links to other ancient music sites and some ancient greel pronounciation guides.

Hope it helps

Oudysseos, thanks for the link. In fact using this, I have found the following gem...

http://www.oeaw.ac.at/kal/agm/aulos/Ligy.mp3

It mimics one of the few scores of Ancient Hellenic music we KNOW of. It was originally performed at Delphi in 128 BC, the accompanying aulos is mentioned, and the vocal melody which went in similar tunes.

Ancient Greeks wrote their music like their numbers, using the letters of their 24letter alphabet. The above is written by Athenaios, Paean 14-16

So, people if you want to listen to authentic ancient greek music (not much was preserved but THIS fraction did), download and listen to the link above (don't worry, it is legal).

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Sort of surprised there's such limited interest in this type of stuff. I think it's more likely due to folks not having thought about it much or heard much of it instead of really not liking or enjoying it. Especially on eastern/semitic/nomadic stuff - which is really beautiful and works very well as additions in the game too. Just take a listen to this one: http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeag.../butterfly.mp3 - which has traditional Irish flute and a Bronze Age Irish horn.

[Eduorius]

TA can you show me some Gallic music? I would like to hear some of that plz

[Teleklos Archelaou]

That's one thing I have no knowledge of at all. I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction on that one.

[Eduorius]

Darn. Well I will hear Riverdance in the meantime =)

[Orb]

Very interesting stuff!

[Severian Huizi]

Did the Ancient Greeks themselves actually use Pythagorean tuned 12-tone chromatic scale? Actually, the "Ligy" sample sounds very Sun Ra-- a lover of esoteric flute and oboe melodies.

[Elthore]

this is very interesting, just not much info on it though...

pythagoras' original theories on music didnt specifically state a 12 tone scale. He did say that 12 was important, but he also connected music with celestial bodies. Turkish music was derived from pythagoras' theories, but you can hear that it is very different from Western music which is also based on pythagoras.

heres a link :
http://www.davesabine.com/Music/Arti...9/Default.aspx

[The Celt]

Well it's about time you guys started looking for the real stuff. I love ancient music and TBH I couldn't stand the in game soundtrack for EB as it's too "Hollywood". Glad to see some more folks interested in finding something a little more "Real".
BTW check out some of the Cithara tunes on the site oudysseos posted. Some of them would sound really awesome on the strat map.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Where does one go if they want to hear something very realistically "celtic"? It seems like it's such a mess; "authentic celtic music" turns up crap even in a search - and lots of it. Are there any groups or individuals who reconstruct anything like what ancient celtic music might have been like? It would seem like there would be many of them, but I've no idea and don't have the ability to slog through the different classifications of what is celtic music to understand.

[Eduorius]

Dont know dude, but you have the most awesome signature I have seen.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Hehe. Thanks, but I'm just waiting on Caratacos to get some unit images done for some hellenic factions, and then I'll probably turn "traitor" and use one of them instead.

We've got to get someone to also actually *make* that unit that you see depicted there. We don't even have anyone lined up for it at the moment.

[Eduorius]

I just saw that you use the Getai general on TWC ;)

Really interesting unit. If you tell me he is a Belgae I would believe it certainly. Interesting is for me how only the Belgae, the Brits, and later the Picts used woad, but other tribes dont.

Back to the topic. From where those musicians get the inspiration for Celtic music? Is the bagpipe ancient? Wikipedia says it does.

So bagpipes can be Gallic music?

If you are interested I found this link about Celtic musical instruments.

http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/

and this....

An early mention for a use of bagpipes in written history can be found in the 1st-century epic Punica of Silius Italicus on the First Punic War; this mention to an old Galician tribe reads:

Fibrarum et pennae divinarumque sagacem
flammarum misit dives Callaecia pubem,
barbara nunc patriis ululantem carmina linguis,
nunc pedis alterno percussa verbere terra,
ad numerum resonas gaudentem plauder caetras. (book III.344-7)

"Rich Gallaecia sent its youths, wise in the knowledge of divination by the entrails of beasts, by feathers and flames— who, now crying out the barbarian song of their native tongue, now alternately stamping the ground in their rhythmic dances until the ground rang, and accompanying the playing with sonorous caetras" (or gaethas, bagpipes).

Hope this can help you in your quest for Gallic music =)

[abou]

For Barbarian cultures I would recommend a hearty sampling of Blind Guardian, Bathory, Moonsorrow, and other forms of power, black, and viking metal.

PS. there needs to be a :metal: smile.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Riverdance? heavy metal? gah! I'm beginning to wonder if anyone out there has even tried to make serious attempts at reproducing ancient celtic music (pre 1000 CE). This Prehistoric Music of Ireland seems about the only thing I've seen that is serious. http://homepage.eircom.net/~bronzeagehorns/sounds.html I see some stuff that purports to be celtic folk music from Galacia and Asturia, but I've no idea really - it sounds like modern "celtic music" to me in the clips I found online. So many of these sites are 5 to 8 years out of date too - like some were passing interests by the author and then dropped. Midi stuff is definitely out of the question also though.

[Eduorius]

Dont quit your quest TA! I know you can find the music that Corocotta, Vercingetorix, Asterix, Brennus, and others liked to hear when they were eating their wild boars.

[Anthony]

Said kings while eating were probably actually listening to Greek musicians. Greek musical instruments show up in the tombs of Celtic kings. They likely listened to a mixture of local music (various tin horns, hand drums, and string instruments akin to dulcimers and early harps, themselves imported from Greeks via the Ptolemies, and vocal music) and Hellenic music (through hired foreign musicians). Incidentally, their food would probably not be so much a straight up wild boar as a bit more cosmopolitan food. Celtic kings, particularly in Gaul, were very continental; very fad driven people. Kind of comforting, things haven't changed in over 2000 years.

[Elthore]

some people must have attemped recreations, its probably just hidden away with all the modern celt music. Maybe you could attempt to find specific songs that are known to be old and are still played.

A half assed way would be to attempt to recreate it using staple celtic 'riffs', like how blues has that specific sound because of the way its played. You could also recreate the instruments with some creative effects use, and modern instruments.

i can attempt some recreations if the info was available...but i guess thats the tricky part.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, it looks like the Kilmartin Sessions is one of the only other real things I can find: http://www.kilmartin.org/music/music.html They have a few short samples on the site and it's available on CD for about 14 pounds.

Using original instruments and reconstructions, this unique CD offers, for the first time, a chance to hear the sounds that would have been familiar to our forebears thousands of years ago. It includes the first commercially available recordings of the two thousand year old Caprington horn, the 8th century iron bell of St Adomnan, the 9th century Pictish triple pipes, and many other remarkable items, including a traditional Gaelic quern song and its use as melody for St Columba's visionary poem, the Altus Prosator. The music ranges from ringing rocks to bird-bone flutes; Bronze Age horns and drums to the extraordinary sound of the Celtic war trumpet, the carnyx (left), specially recorded for the Kilmartin Sessions in Smoo Cave. It ends with the eerie combination of harmonic singing and Bronze Age horn, recorded in the Hamilton Mausoleum - the building with the longest reverberation in the world. It was an appropriate choice, for like the Mausoleum, this CD has its own reverberations reaching into our remotest past and our deepest sub-concious.

This Carolan's Receipt CD is harp music that is pretty early compared to anything else we have written down, but it's only 17th century - and it sounds a little like it too, but he was also influenced by some classical composers.
http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1097983/a/Carolan's+Receipt.htm

"Derek Bell recreates the authentic sound of Carolan, the blind 17th century Irish harper who transformed this traditional musical genre. (Actually Bell is almost certainly a far better harp player than Carolan, whose genius was composition, not performance.) Bell mainly uses a wire-strung harp, which gives his arrangements the haunting air of a music box. Listen closely for Bell's magical musical embellishments. Bell includes some of Carolan's best-known pieces (Blind Mary, George Barabazon, and Carolan's Farewell to Music) but also treats us to some lesser-known masterpieces, including Lady Athenry, Caralon's Nightcap, and Lady Gethin."

[oudysseos]

Just as far as Carolan goes- Irish trad music happens to be something that I know quite a bit about, and I'd have to say that Carolan's 18th century harp music would be an innacurate analogue for 3rd century BC celtic music, as the wire-strung harp is an essentially modern instrument, dating from no earlier than the 11th or 12th century AD. Carolan also composed in the modern diatonic mode (heavily influenced by older irish modes of course) so his music still sounds "modern" and is still popular today. SO it's unlikely that Vercingetorix would have been listening to Planxty Irwin.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thanks oudysseos! It sounded way too classical to me anyway.

A few things I might recommend, btw, for other culture groups:

Conrad Steinmann - Melpomen: Ancient Greek Music
Various Artists - Yemen - Music of the North
Atrium Musicae De Madrid - Musique Arabo-Andalouse
Huun-Huur-Tu - Where Young Grass Grows
Gevorg Dabagian - The Music of Armenia: Volume Three - Duduk
Ali Jihad Racy - Ancient Egypt: A Tribute
Krauka - Vikinga Seidur

Not all correct for the time period exactly, but all with a very good feel and quite nice to listen to on the whole while playing EB.

[oudysseos]

Here's another web resource for EB contemporary greek music- I hope it's not a repeat. It's interesting because you see images of the actual papyri, then click on them to hear them. Also has links and resources.

There is here in Dublin a National Archive for Music, I hace a reader's card, I will pop in some day and see if they have any resources on ancient music. Don't have much hope though.

Edit-- I suppose that this post will work out much better if I include the link :)

http://classics.uc.edu/music/

Edit of the edit-- here's another good music site.

http://users.otenet.gr/~bm-celusy/grmusic.html

Edit cubed-- Bovine Management?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Sure, within the past month I've some cattle herding, vacinating, and tagging.

[The Celt]

Where does one go if they want to hear something very realistically "celtic"? It seems like it's such a mess; "authentic celtic music" turns up crap even in a search - and lots of it. Are there any groups or individuals who reconstruct anything like what ancient celtic music might have been like? It would seem like there would be many of them, but I've no idea and don't have the ability to slog through the different classifications of what is celtic music to understand.

You could always try old French! Tho thats probably alittle too germanized. Perhaps take an Irish harp and some Goblet Drums and play them alongside a Cithara and a Duduk? Wish I could be of more help TA but I'm kinda new to this music hunting thing.

[Eduorius]

TA how is your search going? Have you looked out for Persian music, because I think that it happens the same as with Celtic music.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I have gotten the Kilmartin Sessions and they are really great. There are a lot of songs there I am putting in my personal build for barbarian factions strat map music.

Persian Cataphract could answer some more on the Persian side, but he has pointed me towards some good stuff already. The best thing I've found so far are some songs from the Kudsi Erguner Ensemble, their CD Peshrev and Semai of Tanburi Djeil Bey. It has some vocals, but a lot of them are just instrumental and work very well. TPC and Angadil also have pointed out La Musique Savante Persiane by Sorouch Izadi and Djalal Akhbari, but it has too much in the way of vocals for me to really enjoy it on the strat map. Same problem with Shahram Nazeri's Mythical Chant (Kurdish Classical Music). Same problem also with Haj-Ghorban Soleimani's Tradition Des Bardes Du Khorassan.

Oh, by the way, the Roman music has a second CD out, *and* you can get both of them for 10 bucks each (USD) on audiolunchbox - mp3's. One is for wind instruments and the other for strings.