A request to those who take issue with something in the mod

[khelvan]

Europa Barbarorum, as a mod team, has existed for over two years, running on three now. The team members have put a lot into this mod - their time, sweat...battled through illness (at least three members were diagnosed with one form of cancer or another, including myself), and tragic loss of loved ones. A lot of stress and emotions were poured out as positive energy into this labor of love. We don't get paid for it, and we don't have any expectations that this would ever happen. We do it because we want to see the best representation of this ancient time period available to all, including but not exclusively ourselves.

We're human. We are emotionally invested in our mod. We have always welcomed scholarly debate, but we have always rejected aggressive tones or criticism which is not constructive, regardless of the merit of the argument. As we have put more of ourselves in our mod and had less time in our personal lives to devote to it, we have become less patient with those people who would take issue with us in a manner that is not constructive.

So my request is: If you have an issue with our mod, present it nicely. Don't take the attitude that "you're absolutely wrong" or "there is not a shred of evidence to support your position" or any such demonstrative statements. Approach the discussion openly, sources in hand, but willing to listen. If you present sources and ask for open debate, you will get it. If you present your position in the light that there is absolutely nothing to support the opposite position, you will be presented with a mirror of that argument, with additional rancor for having presented yourself that way. If you don't like our skins, suggest how to improve them rather than simply say they're ugly. If you simply call our skins ugly, you will get an ugly response.

In very basic communications classes they will teach you to always consider your audience. If you present an historical argument with sources to the EB team with the goal of helping us change our minds, by beginning your discussion with the attitude that you are absolutely right and we are absolutely wrong is completely counterproductive to your goal. We don't squelch dissentors, we get pissed off at arrogance. There is a very real difference there, and perhaps if we were being paid for this we could afford to be completely aloof and detached and "turn the other cheek." But we're not - we're emotional volunteers who ask only one thing of the people who enjoy playing this mod: To present whatever information, argument, or criticism you have with respect. You don't have to agree, but if you want to have your argument evaluated objectively, you will need to present it objectively.

Finally, we have always encouraged people to disagree with us, given the caveat above. Spouting long diatribes about how bad we are because we don't listen to people is, first of all, completely baseless because we love to be presented with evidence, and second, completely useless because we won't bother to listen; the person making the argument simply doesn't understand us, so why would we bother to attempt to reason with them?

So, please remember the following in your communication to us:

- Present your arguments as presenting evidence, not truth
- Keep in mind that we are completely open to opposing views, but closed to arrogance in presenting said views
- Separate in your mind us shutting off arrogance as opposed to opposing views
- Keep in mind that we are a mod team and our focus is on completing work, not debating; where evidence is open to interpretation, and we interpret it one way, we will likely not change our minds unless brand new evidence is presented
- We're human, we don't get paid for this, and we react badly to both the attitudes I discuss above and people who seem to enjoy nothing more than finding reasons to criticize us

I, for one, wish I were a better person and could simply ignore the attitudes and attacks that are sometimes made here. It would be great to be completely professional in all things (striving to be more like I am in my "real" job), but the truth is that I come here to avoid the stress of daily life, to put my limited time and energy into something I enjoy, and I can't stand attitudes I perceive as arrogant or as a sense of entitlement when all I have ever wanted was to provide something fun to everyone at absolutely no cost.

Honestly, I don't think that requiring someone to suppress their ego before making a critical argument is too much to ask, given what we're doing for free here, no matter how unjust that may seem to people.

As an aside, any and all posts that contain Hitler or Nazi references when evaluating our actions, or anyone else's for that matter, will be deleted immediately, beginning this minute, including recent ones. Unless you survived the Holocaust, you have absolutely no right to make such a comparison.

Thank you.

[Mr Jones]

too right. i'm sick of people seeing one picture or having one source saying somethin contrary to what is in place in EB and automatically assuming EB is wron and attacking them without consulting any other sources, especially when it is something that they want changed in the game (for gameplay reasons) and so go out of their way to find "evidence" to support the chnage they desire and get angry when evidence is presented which disproves theirs.

[khelvan]

To EB, conclusions are to be drawn from evidence. We don't make a conclusion and then retroactively search for evidence to support it. For us, there is no definitive answer to questions of ancient history, only evidence that supports various arguments. Sometimes, the experts who have gathered the evidence are busy, not available, or have sadly gone inactive, but we still arrived at our conclusion this way originally.

The above response is appreciated, but may be missing the point; I merely mean to say that anyone is welcome to present evidence that supports a conclusion different from one which we have made. However, it should be done just so; as evidence, not as a presentation of truth.

The point was to set expectations and hopefully adjust attitudes, not to rally anyone to a cause. Of course people have a "right" to present their arguments however they wish. If, however, the goal is to help the mod, that way will be completely counter-productive to the goal.

[Mr Jones]

of course, i didn't mean to start a cavalcade of posts supporting EB. what i meant is that often other posters (not the EB team) will have their own ideas about certain aspects of the game (especially when it comes to what units should be included in the game/what equipment they used), and that rather than provide a logical argument for their inclusion supported by evidence, they come up with one little bit of evidence they can find and then become angry if someone on the EB team disagrees with them. one example of this is people who argue for the inclusion of camelry. i do not hold anything against people who would like to see camelry included, but so often they do it in an manner that is not appropriate and it can get annoying.

[Warmaster Horus]

Well said Khelvan!
However I feel that the people who want to contribute to this great mod in a polite way will have the natural instinct to do as you have said. Those who will react in an arrogant manner will most likely not follow your different points. It is the same as asking not to flame or to insult each other on forums; or to respect the opinion of others: there are always people who will flame, insult and disrespect people.
We shall see the difference this post does.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Well said Khelvan!

[oudysseos]

I know Khelvan wasn't stumping for praise or votes, but sometimes you have to stand up and be counted.

EB fan here, and I despise arrogant, rude flamers.

[edyzmedieval]

[MaximusGauis]

I want to thank all of you that have made EB what it is. Again many thanks for all your hard work that goes into this Mod. I for one am very greatful for this.

[oudysseos]

There is a difference between criticism and being a back seat driver. The one is involved in the process, an important part of the team; the latter is mostly just an annoyance and contibutes nothing besides complaints and distractions. The people who feel targeted and threatened by threads and posts such as Khelvan's cannot accept that they belong to the second class and not the first, and assume that because their particular complaints are not being immediately acted upon that the EB team is totalitarian and immune to criticism. There is a third class of people who behave like that: children.

The large diverese and unpaid EB team has been going for three years or so now and according to multiple posts often is not unanimous in their decisions, yet they still manage to produce a product that has generated an overwhelmingly positive response. To me, that indicates that they have a robust internal criticism that performs its function perfectly. They also have an internal government that allows them to make decisions and act while satisfying their members. I do not know exactly how this functions, as I, and 'EB's last living critic' are not members of the team and do not have access to their private forums.

They produce a product that they are under absolutely no obligation to share with anyone, just as they are under no obligation of any kind to solicit anybody's opinion about anything. The fact that they voluntarily do maintain public forums of a scale that dwarf most other modding projects, and that they do listen to every (oft repeated) suggestion and answer almost every question however inane and redundant is nothing short of praiseworthy.

There are many mods that have not chosen to involve the public in beta testing: are they Nazis? Do you, fallen851, have a right to beta test any mod anywhere and dictate changes to the developers? The only case in which you do have that right is if you were to produce a mod of your own. Having done so, you are free to buy the bandwith and let other people try it, but you don't have to do this, nor do you have to pay attention to anything that anybody says about your work. Neither does EB, or Hegemonia, or RTR or anyone. These mod teams choose to listen to your opinion at all; it therefore follows that they are entitled to choose how much of your opinion they listen to.

No one is forcing anyone to play this game.

EB is not a nation, is not a polity, is not a republic, is not a democracy. It is a purely voluntary association of people who are completely entitled to define the rules of their association and to define the limits and extent of the participation of outsiders. It is a freely given labour of love that has been amazingly tolerant of assholes.


Fallen, your invocation of the Nazis and the Holocaust is demeaning and shameful, but not for the reason that Khelvan indicated. ( I'm sorry K, but it is wrong to say that only those who were victims of Nazi atrocities can use them as a measure for other atrocities. )
But comparing the development team of a free computer game modification who are exercising their absolute and undeniable right to slightly limit the unhelpful negativity of non-members to Nazis is simply foul and disgusting. Shame on you, sir. Be damned to you, sir.

[Geoffrey S]

Please lock this topic. The only necessary point is that made by Khelvan, and it is quite clearly not open to debate; all that it can lead to is general consensus, the odd post by Fallen containing objectional utterances and disgusting allegations, and yet another series of flames either directed at individual members and the EB team.

[Tiberius Nero]

@ Fallen

I am quite baffled by the recent handling of MeinPanzer by some members of the EB team myself (I certainly didn't see anything disrespectful in his posts, but hey people have different tolerance levels I guess), but bringing up the Nazis and making the reductio ad Hitlerum in such a context is a sure way to weaken your position.

[Krusader]

I would say the recent happenings and the post sums up what I and some other EB members feel:

Is it worth it?

I for one, will probably leave after EB1 is out. All I want is to make a version of RTW I would love to play, but when you see people who obviously are more intent on trolling with us OR who seems to be more interested in finding faults with our mod than actually wanting to help us out with historical accuracy OR don't like how we show their "forefathers" as something else than noble, righteous & holier than thou supermen who never did anything wrong, then I wonder why put all my free-time into this.

I fucking failed an exam last semester because I was up 30+ hours straight getting a installer made for v0.8 and then uploading it to various mirrors and servers and updating the website and then making sure it was posted on forums. It was entirely my own fault, but there are probably other episodes of "sacrifice" within the team that are not out. I know one guy quit EB because his girlfriend said "her or them!".

[khelvan]

I think locking this is a good idea.

Fallen, perhaps I am wrong in the reasons I stated above, as I have been informed, but that doesn't change my resolve to delete those posts. Please stop making them.

Thank you.