Faction re-emergence in Russia

**Brenus** · 02-14-2007, 21:22

Think about the Russian’s point of view: Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Georgia and others, all want to be best US allies and vassals. Look your (US) reaction with Ortega and Chavez (and Peruvian) elections, and the blockade of Cuba… During 20 years, the Russian's point of view was at best ignored (former Yugoslavia, for ex). At worst disdained. And to call to Mother Russia, well what did exactly G. W. Bush before to go to war? Do you remember when to criticise his politic was just an act of treachery?
And what Putin said? US intervened out of their borders, without any consideration of International Laws and don’t give a s…. about international (or so-called) opinion. Nothing of this can be denied, really. It can be contested, but the reality is the US does what it wants…
Now, Putin is a precedent speech, I think in the Douma, told the Russian Representatives when in the mean time Russia was dismantling its nuclear weapons, the US launched the new Star War Programme… That the Bush administration cancelled a succession of International Treaties etc… It can’t be denied…
I even remember him saying “well done”. Putin is playing for internal politic of Russian Pride… And He reminds to the Russians that 20 years ago, they were a Power. And when I went in Russia, that is what the Russians resented the most, this lost of this feeling, to be respected because big armies.

“How is Russia going to have a war with the USA? It's just not possible. They have no armies, weapons, organisation, and all their money is either in the hands of individuals (who'll be out of there to Europe within minutes) or in oil, which is worthless if no one trusts you enough to buy it.”

”What will they do? Send tens of thousands of unarmed, untrained, unmotivated conscripts at American tanks? America could just set up a desk giving out visas and free vodka and solve the problem immediately.” Where the h… did you picked this? I don’t know the Conscripts’ motivation, but untrained? The Russians are actually succeeding in Chechnya what the US is failing to do in Iraq… It is not a Garden Party, and methods are questionable, but they broke the Chechen rebellion… It is amazing (and amusing) how all the potential enemies of Russia always under-estimate the Russians until too late…
During Eltsin’s period, what you are saying was right. But Putin gave back to Russia its pride, and I won’t bet on a Russian defeat if attacked.

And guys, your Abrahams are far to be so good… I am not any more really informed about Russian tanks but history tends to prove that the Russians always produce good tanks and planes…

“Besides, one attack and no one buys more oil. No oil means no money, meaning no Russian anything.”: Yep, we will buy oil to Chavez or Iran… Better. Did you follow the problem with Gazprom, when the Russian were near to cut the pipeline to Europe? Panic!!!!

I think the title is actually good: A faction re-emerged, and we won’t like it…

**BDC** · 02-14-2007, 22:14

I'm sure if America had no issues with killing civilians then they would be 'achieving' as much in Iraq as in Chechnia. Not that Russia has sorted that out really at all, despite brutality on a large scale.

Russia has never really been the threat it claimed to be. It has always been a bluff. Not to say it didn't have loads of nukes and big armies, but they were never as powerful as the Russian gov would have liked everyone to think.

More to the point, Russia's old sphere of influence is now thoroughly under the EU's boot, and any sort of industrial muscle it once had is gone.

There is only so much oil, it runs out.

**CrossLOPER** · 02-14-2007, 22:17

Originally Posted by BDC

I'm sure if America had no issues with killing civilians then they would be 'achieving' as much in Iraq as in Chechnia.

Right...

**ChewieTobbacca** · 02-15-2007, 00:46

Whoever said the Russian military was weak: WRONG WRONG WRONG!

They are in the current phase of adding more than 31 new warships to the Navy as well as improving their army units. The military-industrial complex is what has kept Russia's economy afloat and now they are reaping the profits with a large surplus and lots of money available. In fact, MiG and Sukhoi are currently jointly working on the PAK FA, the new 5th generation fighter for Russia which is scheduled to be flown first within a year. Yes, a rival to the F-22. In fact, Russia and India are also collaborating on another 5th-gen fighter to fill the same role as the JSF/F-35. Furthermore, current Russian aviation, in the form of the modernized versions of the MiG-29/35 and the derivatives of the Su-27 Flanker (such as the Su30,33,35, etc.) are superior fighters to the F-15C and F-16, which though being phased out, are still our frontline fighter planes. Then, the fact that they still have a huge nuke stockpile means they will still be a top player in the world.

**The Wizard** · 02-15-2007, 00:48

I'll put it simply.

Our old KGB homie had a bout of strong nostalgia.

'Nuff said.

ChewieTobacca: One word: morale. The Russian army of today is so horribly managed, led and controlled that the average soldier has absolutely no motivation whatsoever to serve his country. It's a textbook example of how conscription can **** up in the most horrible way.

This isn't the Red Army. This is a shadow of its former self. Perhaps on its way back, but doing so with baby steps.

Also, that PAK-FA? India finally got Putin to develop it with them in January or early February when he visited New Delhi. In return, HAL does not get to develop the indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft. Pity.

**ShadeHonestus** · 02-15-2007, 01:20

Originally Posted by BDC

I'm sure if America had no issues with killing civilians then they would be 'achieving' as much in Iraq as in Chechnia. Not that Russia has sorted that out really at all, despite brutality on a large scale.

Excellent point, the two have totally different rules of engagement. Hell, domestically the police have totally different rules of engagement an unarmed suspect can get shot 40 times in NYC and its called an anamoly and a crime, in Russia thats called procedure.

People never accept the fact that the U.S. military is in a region where forever "might made right" and the only person you trust to protect you are those willing to do so by unrelenting, unleashed might. There is no trust in the rule of Law protected by peace there has only been the rule of one protected by his murders. In the middle of this is a U.S. military with rules of engagement that in comparison have them trying to kill with kindness.

An Iraq war veteran told me this, "Its like putting you in front of a firing squad with a water pistol and saying you can only shoot when fired upon." He did go on to say that despite this feeling, its the only way to maintain the principle in our mission and that the contradiction is what has to be overcome to have success.