My Historical Army Guide.

[Eduorius]

Hi! =)

Well guys I am doing a job for myself and all who are interested. I am doing a historical army guide with EB units and would like to know what you think of the job I have already done.

Here is the guide

http://www.axifile.com?8113256

[DeathEmperor]

Hi Ed it's me DU!

thanks for sending me that guide. i'll be sure to use it in my campaigns for .81 Right now I'll just finish the campaigns I started in .8 and wait for .8 after I'm done with them.

[Eduorius]

Glad u like it =)

I used a ratio of 1:25 for the units. Work I do since I cant make historical battles still

[Dooz]

Nice. It would be cool if examples of historically accurate armies for EB were posted in this thread for all factions, or at least those that are possible. For example there was a nice guide for an accurate Roman legion for RTR. I believe it was something like:

1 General
1 Velites
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Equites
5 mercenary or allied units, preferably similar to each of the Roman ones. Like 1 skirmisher, 1 cavalry, 3 sword or spear.

Worked out pretty good, you would basically be outnumbered most of the time as you would have an 11 unit stack. More of a challenge, accurate, fun. Other examples?

[Eduorius]

I already have the Roman armies for the Polybian, Marian, and Imperial period

Would show it to u soon and I am already working in a Carthaginian one too =)

[Griever14206]

Yeah more these would be awesome. I know for RTR they had them for every faction, even though a lot of them were loose interpretations (most of the barbarians were hard to determine) it is cool being put into the exact same situations as some of the great commanders of the ancient world.

I mean, having an army of Pezhetieroi (mispelled I'm sure), Hetairoi, and Hypaspists really isn't that fun. I loved playing with the Roman guide and actually having legions. It was always great thinking about what you're going to do when you have to manage "legions". It also makes a serves as a great setting for roleplaying.

[keravnos]

I already have the Roman armies for the Polybian, Marian, and Imperial period

Would show it to u soon and I am already working in a Carthaginian one too =)

I believe a Ptolemaic one is possible too, as well as a Seleukid one. You can do one for Pahlava as well, as there are sources a plenty. KH too, what with all the battles the last Spartan king had against the Romani, or the Aitolians/Achaians. Pontos this would be a bit harder, but doable

The problem, however, seems to be about Hayasdan and Baktria. Can you find army info on them? On Baktria at least, ony one book I know that goes into tactics and army which must have been used.

I would give my right hand to know more on the tactics/army composition/weapon configuration of the Armies of Demetrios (Baktrian Greek King who conquered India) and Menandros (the greatest of the IndoGreek Kings) also known as Milinda in India, known mostly for his conversation with the wise Buddhist Nagasena. Menandros became Buddhist as a result and stopped wars altogether. But exactly which wars and campaigns he waged until then, and with which what army composition, can only be theorised.

[skuzzy]

I personally think army compositions deserve a sticky, but that's just me.

[Eduorius]

Glad to know that people are interested.

Well if someone shows me how to share files through internet I can send you guys the whole guide when it is finished.

Well while you wait here is another one.

Nomads

Parthia:

Parthia fights as many other nomadic nations from the steppes, using horse archers to wither the enemy numbers down and weaken any soft spots in the enemy battle line, then cataphracts charge en-masse against weak opponents or through the aforementioned weak spots in a battle line.
Many masters of the HA armies know how a few of them can win you an easy victory. The formula is simple.

Horse Archers + Cataphracts = Heroic Victory.

Parthian army composition (Based on the model of Carrhae)
1000 cataphracts
6-8000 horse archers

Using EB units:

1 unit of cataphracts (Zradha Pahlavans)
6 units of horse archers (Pahlava Shivatir)

* This is just an example. Parthia against Marcus Antonius had an army of 50 000 men.




Bibliography

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/p...thian_army.php

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry

Warfare in the Ancient World by Brian Todd Carey; Joshua B. Allfree,; John Cairns

[Oleo]

Well if someone shows me how to share files through internet I can send you guys the whole guide when it is finished.

Go here: http://www.axifile.com/

Look for "Select file to upload", browse to the file and click upload. Wait for a while till you get a new page. Look for "Download Link (Public):" and post the link behind it here.

For some more posts about historical army composition: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75467

[Moros]

Someone has a good idea of historical "barbarian" armies?

Cause I've got quite the idea of the roman and greek factions, but I don't have that much an idea of historical barbarian factions. Atm I just use armies which exist mostly out of light to medium infantry a few elites and a leuce epos or two and sometimes a brehentin , in case of gauls, (? spelling ?) and ofcourse a general.

[Eduorius]

Go here: http://www.axifile.com/

Look for "Select file to upload", browse to the file and click upload. Wait for a while till you get a new page. Look for "Download Link (Public):" and post the link behind it here.

For some more posts about historical army composition: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75467

Thanks for the tip I will use it =)

As for the barbarians someone once told me that they gathered what they could, but for the Sweboz I am studying the battles of Ariovistus, Arminius, the Teutons, and even the Allamani to get an idea of the ratio of cavalry, infantry, etc.


Here is the last one I have done. Plz tell me what u think cause I have my doubts.

First Punic War – Africa

Under the control of the Greek mercenary Xanthippus. Armies like this one were raised against foreign invaders like the Romans.
12000 infantry (citizen phalanx and some mercenaries)
4000 cavalry
100 elephants

with EB units

1 General
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Sacred Band cavalry
1 units of Misteret Izrahim Tsarim (Phoenician citizen phalanx)
3 units of Dorkim Lubaim-Ponnim Mesoarianim (Liby-Phoenician heavy infantry)
1 unit of mercenary (Lybian, Spanish, Gallic)
2-3 units of elephants

* The number of elephants is hard to estimate. It could be even 4 if you have the money to go for it.

Second Punic War – Italy

The army that Hannibal used for his campaign in Italy after recruiting some Gallic mercenaries in the north of Italy. A lot of soldiers from different nations.
10/ 12000 Africans (4000 light)
7/8000 Spania (4000 light)
10/15000 Celts
4000 Numidian cavalry
4000 Celtic heavy cavaly
2000 Spanish heavy cavalry

with EB units

1 General

1 unit of Balearic light infantry
1 unit of Balearic slingers
1 unit of Iberian caetrati
1 unit of Iberian loricati scutari
2 units of Numidian cavalry
2 units of Brhentin (Gallic noble cavalry)
1 unit of Iberi Lanceari
2 units of Numidian skirmishers
2 unit of Gaesatae
3 units of Geroas
2 units of Aanatim Aloopim (Elite African pikemen)
1 unit of Dorkim Aloopim (Elite African swordsmen)


*Hannibal brought elephants, but many of them died and could only be used in Trebia. Also after Cannae, Hannibal recruited local Italian troops like Samnites and Bruttians. I chose the loricati scutari instead of the normal scutari to show that some of Hannibal’s soldiers use captured Roman weapons. The important to see here is that there were as many Gauls as Africans and that Hannibal had a lot of cavalry.

[McHrozni]

Nice. It would be cool if examples of historically accurate armies for EB were posted in this thread for all factions, or at least those that are possible. For example there was a nice guide for an accurate Roman legion for RTR. I believe it was something like:

1 General
1 Velites
1 Hastati
1 Principes
1 Triarii
1 Equites
5 mercenary or allied units, preferably similar to each of the Roman ones. Like 1 skirmisher, 1 cavalry, 3 sword or spear.

Worked out pretty good, you would basically be outnumbered most of the time as you would have an 11 unit stack. More of a challenge, accurate, fun. Other examples?

Too many horsemen for a Roman legion, there should be 300 horsemen for 4200 men in a legion, which is less than 1/10th. This is more in line:
1 General
2 Velites
2 Hastati
2 Principes
1-2 Triarii
1 Equites
Rest allies.

For combination between game effectiveness and roleplay, I use:
6 Hastati
6 Principes
1-3 Triarii
2-4 Equites (extrodinarii, prefferably)
1 General
Rest allies (usually archers)

It's close to what a Roman legion should look like, minus skirmishers, though you can use them instead of allies. They're useful against elephants, at least.

My personal favorite:

1 General
8x Velites
10x Hastati
10x Principes
10x Triarii (reduce base size to 3/4, so 120 men per unit at huge units)
3x Equites

Unfortunately this doesn't fit in an army. But at huge unit size, this would amount to (almost exactly) 1 legion.

Imagina Cannae, when the Roman army would be 16 legions strong (with 8 of them having 3x cavalry)...

McHrozni

[Digby Tatham Warter]

Good thread Eduorius, I will use your quide as I like the idea of balanced armies, the problem is adjusting things to make it easier with some of the not so balanced armies the AI can greet you with.

[Eduorius]

Guys still no one have seen any problems with the army composition, right?

I am not so sure about Carthago, but you get the idea, mostly citizens when defending the city, but mostly mercenaries when invading.

[Eduorius]

I have only found one battle for the Koinon Hellenon.

Its the battle of Selassia and it is between Sparta and Macedonia.

I think that since the Chremonidean war ended so early in the EB timeframe, KH is maybe the faction that can have a the most fantasy roster.

Does anyone knows another battle? I would like to know one with Thuepheroi or Ekdromoi hoplitai.


Thanks for your time =)

[mAIOR]

I think this could be on EB descriptions like in the field of mars you'd have a description of what historical (random faction) armies would look like...


Cheers...

[Teutobod II]

"As for the barbarians someone once told me that they gathered what they could, but for the Sweboz I am studying the battles of Ariovistus, Arminius, the Teutons, and even the Allamani to get an idea of the ratio of cavalry, infantry, etc."

I have not thought of any units but I read around that a ratio of (not in units but in numbers)
1 cavalry: 18 infantry: 2 swordcarriers
could be realistic

[DeathEmperor]

Still coming out with that document for the Seleukids Ed.

I'll email it to ya later and post it here too.

[abou]

I took a look at the document you e-mailed me, Ed. It still needs some work, but here are some Seleucid stats for three battles as in From Samarkhand to Sardis. The first two are under the command of Antiochus III and the last under Antiochus IV.

Battle of Raphia, 217 BC
Phalanx
20,000 Macedonians
10,000 Argyraspides
5,000 Greeks

Semi-heavy infantry
1,000 Thracians

Light infantry
1,500 Cretan archers
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
500 Lydian akontists
10,000 Arabs
1,000 Cardacians
5,000 Dahae and Cilicians
2,000 Persian and 'Agrianian' bowmen and slingers
5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians

Heavy Cavalry
4,000 military settlers
2,000 Royal Guard

68,000 total

I would take "Macedonians" to refer to the Pezhetairoi and in this case the Thracians might be Thracian peltasts or the Thraikioi Triballoi(?). Some of the local levies could probably be collapsed into larger units rather than several small contingents and I am sure that someone on the team could give us an idea of an "umbrella" unit.

As to what Neo-cretans are I have no idea. Paullus suggested just treating them as normal Cretans.

For the cavalry, I would take that to mean 2,000 Hetairoi and 4,000 Thraikioi Prodromoi.

Battle of Magnesia, 190 BC
Phalanx
16,000 Macedonians
1,000 Argyraspides

Semi-heavy infantry
3,000 Tralli(?)
3,000 Thracians
2,000 Cappadocians
3,000 Galatians
4,000 Pisidians, Pamphylians, and Lycians(?)

Light infantry
3,000 Tralli(?)
1,500 Cretan archers
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
2,500 Mysian archers
8,000 Elymaean archers and Cyrtian slingers
2,700 'Orientals'
1,500 Carians and Cilicians
4,000 Pisidians, Pamphylians, and Lycians
1,000 elephant guard

Heavy cavalry
6,000 cataphracts
2,000 Royal Guard

Light cavalry
1,200 Dahaeans (Scythians)
2,500 Galatians
500 'Tarentines' (mounted archers)

71,400 total

TK has already done this battle and so you will want to see his notes on it. They can be found here.

The Daphne procession, 165 BC
Phalanx
15,000 Macedonians
5,000 Argyraspides

Semi-heavy infantry
5,000 'Roman style'
3,000 Thracians
5,000 Mysians(?)
5,000 Galatians

Light infantry
3,000 Cilicians
5,000 Mysian (archers?)

[b]Heavy cavalry[b]
1,500 cataphracts
1,000 Nisaeans
2,000 Royal Guard

45,500 total

Take the 'Roman style' to be our Thorakitai Argyraspidai.

As you can see, the Daphne procession is formed of a much smaller army. This is probably because as the empire shrunk, access to military colonies and areas to levy were lost. Now you have to run on the assumption that if possible, this force would approach the massive ones of the generation before.

Unfortunately, I don't have the layout of these battles handy, but I am sure they are out there somewhere. I wouldn't take the layout at the Battle of Raphia as standard since Antiochus III felt he needed his battle line to match the Ptolemaic one. However, as you can see the Seleucids made sure that they always had sizable cavalry contingents and so tactics similar to those of Alexander wouldn't be out of line.

So if we assume that resources are constant there are a number of core units that are formed from Greek and Macedonian settlers and privileged or noble locals:

1. 15,000 - 16,000 Pezhetairoi
2. 10,000 Argyraspidai until Thorakitai Argyrapisdai are avaible and then there are 5,000 of each.
3. 2,000 Hetairoi

Now, this is a campaigning army that leaves a lot of units unlisted. Units like Hypaspistai and Pheraspidai aren't mentioned, but maybe they garrisoned important, provincial cities where the loyalty of locals were questionable.

[Eduorius]

Thanks a lot abou =)

You didnt find any error with the other factions allready completed?

For the Ptolemaics I am using your work with Raphia.

p.s. Have anyone found sources for Bactria, KH, Pontus, or Armenia? Is dividing by 25 or by 20? My math is not accurate with this gargantuan armies.

[Moros]

maybe you can find something for Hayasdan and Pontu from Appian? He described the Mithridatic wars. A collection of all his texts:
http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/...idatic_00.html
There must be some army compositions in there, I think.

EDIT:
Some numbers I stumbled on:

Mithridates manufactured arms in every town. The soldiers he recruited were almost wholly Armenians. From these he selected the bravest to the number of about 70,000 foot and half that number of horse and dismissed the rest. He divided them into companies and cohorts as nearly as possible according to the Italian system, and turned them over to Pontic officers to be trained.

Mithridates sent them plenty of supplies and arms and soldiers from Cabira, where he wintered and collected a new army. Here he brought together about 40,000 foot and 4,000 horse.

Gonna check for more numbers and authors handeling these wars. I don't think you're gonna find any other ancient texts so easily than those about the Mithridatic wars. Someone might have a book about this, or perhaps foot or someone knows about stuff like this?

EDIT2:

While Sextilius was doing this, Tigranes brought together some 250,000 foot and 50,000 horse. He sent about 6,000 of the latter to Tigranocerta, who broke through the Roman line to the tower, and seized and brought away the king's concubines.

Mithridates had in his own army 250,000 foot and 40,000 horse, 300 ships with decks, 100 with two banks of oars each, and other apparatus in proportion. He had for generals Neoptolemus and Archelaus, two brothers. The king took charge of the greater number in person. Of the allied forces Arcathias, the son of Mithridates, led 10,000 horse from Armenia Minor, and Doryalus commanded the phalanx. Craterus had charge of 130 war chariots. So great were the preparations on either side when the Romans and Mithridates first came in conflict with each other, about the 173d Olympiad.

Then he marched against Archelaus, proceeding also by way of Boeotia. As they neared each other, the forces of Archelaus just from Thermopylae advanced into Phocis, consisting of Thracian, Pontic, Scythian, Cappadocian, Bithynian, Galatian, and Phrygian troops, and others from Mithridates' newly acquired territory, in all 120,000 men. Each nationality had its own general, but Archelaus had supreme command over all. Sulla's forces were Italians and some Greeks and Macedonians, who had lately deserted Archelaus and come over to him, and a few others from the surrounding country, but they were not one third the number of the enemy.

Ofcourse we can't thrust blindly in the numbers given it's a roman writer and they tend to well you know, bias. Anyhow it's the only thing I can come up with like that.

[Eduorius]

I have read that but there are stuff like the army of Tigranes against Lucullus.
Like 5000 cataphracts and 300 000 infantry.

[abou]

From a quick glance, Edourius, the one thing that stuck out to me was the Romans. I like Warry's conclusions on the use of the Triplex Acies with the formation of solid lines. Another problem, and it isn't inherently your fault, is that has anyone decided on what constitutes a legion? I haven't done the math yet and so I don't know, but theoretically a consul would have at his command 4 legions - two of Roman origin and two of allies. Also, how were these units equipped? Someone on the team stated, and I can't remember who, that allies used gear very similar to the Romans; hence Roman units able to be recruited in all of central Italy.

For the Ptolemaic army, just remember that that was cobbled together very quickly by Ptolemy to fight off Antiochus. In ideal conditions I don't know if they would deploy what they did, but the Ptolemaic kingdom seems to have subsisted on sheer, dumb luck and money. If it weren't for the Romans interfering, Antiochus IV probably would have put an end to the whole stinking dynasty.

For Koinon Hellenon, look into whatever has been written about the Macedonian Wars where the various leagues of Hellas were fighting against each other.

Pontus and Armenia are powers I have no idea about. Pontus just seems to come across as that black sheep of the East that nobody likes. I know they used chariots and phalanxes, but that is it.

Baktria is interesting. They seem to have had a huge resource in manpower and funds and were to the far east what Macedon was in Greece - they just needed someone to organize them. My guess is that they would closely resemble the Seleucids in their military, but would use analogs where possible. You might just have to wait until their roster is completed (very curious about the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi) to see what they have.

The region of Baktria did have a reputation for very fine horses and so I imagine their tactics would be the hammer-and-anvil via phalanx and cavalry.

[Sarcasm]

Probably grossly exaggerated numbers. Not all the 5000 cavalrymen would be cataphracts, nor would they field 300.000 footmen, without any kind of discernible distinction between them.

[Moros]

I have read that but there are stuff like the army of Tigranes against Lucullus.
Like 5000 cataphracts and 300 000 infantry.

Yeah I know especially the part where a 120.000 man storn army was reduced to 10.000 with only 12 roman casualties. BUt it's the only source I can come up with.

[Eduorius]

A pre marian legion is

1 unit of 80 hastati
1 unit of 80 princeps
and now here comes the tricky part because the triarii must be 40, but the triarii unit is of 80.

So 2 pre marian legions are

2 hastati
2 princeps
1 triarii

I think that a marian legion is 2 or 3 cohorts, but I am not sure

[Boyar Son]

Add more then infantry, or else the Gauls will have NO mercy

[Dooz]

A pre marian legion is

1 unit of 80 hastati
1 unit of 80 princeps
and now here comes the tricky part because the triarii must be 40, but the triarii unit is of 80.

So 2 pre marian legions are

2 hastati
2 princeps
1 triarii

I think that a marian legion is 2 or 3 cohorts, but I am not sure

An alternate approach is to edit the triarii unit and cut it in half. That way you can stick with one Roman unit each, and accompanying allied units as it should be.

[abou]

As for the number of men and what ratio to use, I think the best measure is via the Roman cohors as that is the only unit designated that we have numbers for. An example would be the Hellenic phalanxes. Granted, there were subdivisions of the formation, but it is only ever really listed as the phalanx.

Anyway, 10 cohortes in a legion, 3 maniples in a cohort, and 2 centuries of 80 men in a maniple. Therefore, a cohors contains 480 men.

For the cohortes there are four sizes in game:
Small - 25
Normal - 50
Large - 100
Huge - 200

Thus, the ratios across the game:
Small - 19.2:1
Normal - 9.6:1
Large - 4.8:1
Huge - 2.1:1

Unfortunately, these aren't whole numbers. For historical battles it is probably best to use the 25:1 ratio, but in a campaign this should work pretty well. And so a Marian legion would consist of ten cohors in a triplex acies with cavalry units on the side and skirmishers in the front.

Edit: doing some more math... maybe it won't work.