Medieval's Rome: Total War mod input thread

[Kaidonni]

Medieval’s Rome: Total War

Concept
To use the original Medieval: Total War Viking Invasion engine to capture the spirit which Rome: Total War originally conveyed.

Overview
RTW was a great step forward for the Total War series, but it also had it’s shortcomings. Its engine has been further utilised for Medieval 2: Total War. Despite the glory the new engine has experienced, and all of the opportunities it has opened up, MTW:VI has not lost its own glory. The original MTW built on the success of Shogun: Total War’s engine, and was refined through MTW:VI.

MTW:VI still has so much potential, and to build a mod based on RTW is an appetising idea. It will be a great challenge, but it will be well worth it in the end. This mod essentially means using MTW:VI’s base engine to build an almost entirely new game. This is, using the correct terminology, a full conversion. A new map; new units; new characters; new events; new technology tree; new religions (for the most part – Judaism and Heretical Cults as religions will still feature, as they did when MTW first came out); new titles (absent in both RTW and at least the original release of M2:TW – only patches and expansions, i.e. time, will determine whether titles make it in there); and so on.

Proposed Features (WIP – subject to change at any time)
- 17 entirely new factions – play as the Republic of Rome and crush the Carthaginians and other enemies of Rome – or play as the Macedonians and rebuild Alexander's empire;
- Entirely new map covering Europe, Northern Africa, the Middle East and Asia, complete with new regions;
- Length of game spanning from 295BC when the Romans defeated an alliance of Samnites, Etruscans and Gaul to 79AD when Vesuvius erupted and buried Pompeii and many other Roman towns;
- Entirely new technology tree with new art for all buildings and units, including unique technology tree paths for different factions – while the ‘civilised’ factions can build to the top levels, the ‘barbarian’ factions will be more limited;
- Entirely new portraits and names for all characters;
- Titles to reflect the era (including titles for the Romans such as Aedile, Quaestor, and Consul);
- A number of new religions (and two old ones – Judaism and Heretics), complete with agents to preach their ways;
- New region bonuses;
- The Seven Wonders of the World;
- Homelands/Auxilia-based recruitment system;
- Pre-Marian and Post-Marian eras - when it hits 107BC, the Romans can begin building legions;
- Recruitable historic characters such as Julius Caesar, Hannibal and Vercingetorix.

Faction List (WIP)
1. Republic of Rome
2. Carthage
3. Epirus
4. Greek Cities
5. Macedonia
6. Kingdom of Pergamum
7. Pontus
8. Seleucid Empire
9. Ptolemaic Empire
10. Armenia
11. Parthia
12. Germania
13. Britannia
14. Gaul
15. Iberia
16. Sarmatia
17. Rebels

Religions (WIP)
1. Hellenism
2. Roman Paganism (the Di Indigetes and De Novensides)
3. Celtic Paganism
4. Zoroastrianism
5. Judaism
6. Heretical Cults

Cultures (WIP)
NB: Based on architecture, character portraits and unit/settlement pieces.
1. Roman and Hellenic - shared (Republic of Rome, Epirus, Greek Cities, Macedonia, Kingdom of Pergamum, Seleucid Empire);
2. Eastern (Carthage, Pontus, Armenia, Parthia);
3. Barbarian (Gaul, Germania, Britannia, Iberia, Sarmatia);
4. Egyptian (Ptolemaic Empire)? *Possibly Eastern instead if hardcode limits do not allow a complete fourth culture set

Seven Wonders of the World (WIP)
NB: The exact mechanisms for these wonders are speculative – I do not know to what extent I will be able to implement benefits provided by them with MTW:VI’s engine.
1. The Statue of Zeus
2. The Mausoleum at Harlicarnassus
3. The Temple of Artemis
4. The Colossus at Rhodes
5. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon – increased farming output
6. The Pyramids and Sphinx at Giza
7. The Pharos Lighthouse

*****

The above has been updated as of 22/2/2007.

I want to limit the number of factions, since as there is a fine balance to be had between number of factions and a 107-province-limit, while spanning all of Northern Europe, covering parts of Northern Africa, and going as far east as the Caspian Sea.

For sea regions...I want to limit how many of them that are present on the map, perhaps making ships more costly to balance things out.

[cegorach]

Some time ago I was thinking about the same and honestly it is quite easy, but requires time I don't have.

I suggest checking the HTW mod for dozens of useful animations and Fall of Rome for the rest of those.

new events

Events cannot be changed, the rest can, but with some limits.

24+ entirely new factions

You can have up to 30 (31 including rebels),

- The Seven Wonders of the World – unique buildings which cannot be built and cannot be destroyed – providing unique bonuses to the region they are located within;

That is a problem. For sure you can have 2-3 such buildings, but I can't say for sure if it is possible to add more, but rather not.

- Marius-event to allow the Romans to build truly professional legions;

Impossible as event, but you have the era concept present in MTW VI to exploit - just set it the year you need.

- Special emergent faction events, such as Spartacus’ uprising;

Unlikely if not impossible.

Recruitable historic characters such as Julius Caesar, Hannibal and Vercingetorix.

If limited to a certain faction is possible and very easy to add. In PMTW I have over 200 historical characters and the only limit I found for now is the 31 such people per faction.

Religions (WIP)
1. Hellenism
2. Di Indigetes (Roman)
3. Celtic Paganism
4. Zoroastrianism
5. Judaism
6. Heretical Cults

The maximum number is smaller
1. Catholic
2. Orthodox
3. Muslim
4. Pagan
You can replace them easily, but that is really all.
Jewish and Heretical cults can be used in more limited way as units' provinces' religions.
Directly is not possible to use them as faction religions.

Cultures (WIP)
NB: Based on architecture, character portraits and unit/settlement pieces.

Only character portraits can be varied as you like, but the rest can have up to 4 different ways to sho them, three in most cases so one should be shared.

1. The Statue of Zeus – increased public loyalty in provinces for owner;

Very easy, but too simple. There are very diverse possibilities to explore with buildings.

2. The Mausoleum at Harlicarnassus – cheaper building upgrades/less build time;

impossible

3. The Temple of Artemis – cheaper religious building upgrades;

impossible

4. The Colossus at Rhodes – increased trade;

easy

5. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon – increased farming output;

rather easy

6. The Pyramids and Sphinx at Giza – increased public loyalty in Egyptian provinces for owner;

not possible

7. The Pharos Lighthouse – increased trade and cheaper ships.

first is possible and easy, second not.

[

I need all the input I can get. This thread is the main thread for updates, etc, getting a team together, and so on. I just feel that RTW deserves to be Medieval Total War-fied.

Good luck !

I can drop in from time to time and answer some questions.

[caravel]

Superb idea for a mod.

I'm not sure how you can make indestructible buildings? I think that's hard coded, and AFAIK only the VI campaign Forest Clearing is indestructible. cegorach may know of some more.

Of the religions, these four are your most important anyway, and you can use them for your factions:

1. Hellenism
2. Di Indigetes (Roman)
3. Celtic Paganism
4. Zoroastrianism

The others...

5. Judaism
6. Heretical Cults

...can be used in the same way they they're used in vanilla MTW/VI.

For you "events" you'll need to use eras, as the events in the game are also hard coded.

@cegorach: What does one do as regards the pope in a modded game? I have always wondered about that.

[Pericles]

Great idea for a mod.

I like someone who thinks BIG

Some things you listed aren't possible; but the majority of the items you listed ARE possible.

All it will take is a will, and the willingness to do some hard work.

All the best!

Cheers!

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Caravel]Superb idea for a mod.

I'm not sure how you can make indestructible buildings? I think that's hard coded, and AFAIK only the VI campaign Forest Clearing is indestructible. cegorach may know of some more.

Warrior Hold too. Maybe something else.

@cegorach: What does one do as regards the pope in a modded game? I have always wondered about that.

He can make him playable thus allowing crusades or use VI to avoid the entire thing.

[Adrian II]

I think this is a great idea, Kaidonni, but you are going to need a specialist team to work it all out. And I am not going to be on it. I am totally unexperienced and I don't have the time for such a commitment anyway.

As a historian by profession, I may have some useful knowledge on some aspects. I promise I will follow developments in the mod section and help out wherever I can.

Good luck and kudos to your mod.

[Martok]

Sounds fantastic, Kaidonni! I'm no modder myself, but I definitely support you in this endeavour. A Rome mod for MTW/VI is something many have wanted to see.

[Kaidonni]

I won't be able to work on it all of the time, as I have other work such as my animation work at uni to get done. But, of course, there is no point in rushing, so...

Now...hmmm...what about the messages which popped up telling you of certain events, such as the Alexiad being completed or the Peasant Crusade? Would I be able to do anything similar to those, in that at the press of the turn button, one is told of an event, and say, farming output is increased in a certain province? Or would I be very limited for this?

I'd also love to have emerging factions...but, from the replies, it seems this idea might not make it... I'm guessing XL, since as it uses MTW's map, and isn't a full conversion, didn't have issues with emerging factions being included. But, what are my prospects, then?

Hmmm...as for the Marius Event thing...would I be able to do it so that there is, say, a 'Republic' era and an 'Empire' era (to coin phrases on the hoof)? In that, when you 'enter' the Empire era, you get new units available to build as the Romans, pretty much like the factions in MTW when you pass from Early to High, then High to Late? Or could I only implement one set of units the entire campaign?

Another thing - what are the limits for the map itself? Dimensions, maximum number of provinces, etc? I'd prefer an entirely new map so I can at least get room for Numidia and Parthia. I'd also like a more colourful-look to the campaign map, but is that possible? I have no idea what the limitations of the map-making software will be, and at the moment have no chance to access it (bro is redecorating, so I'm sitting in an awkward position typing all of this ).

Thanks so far. I know absolutely nothing about modding MTW: VI at the moment, but that will change.

[caravel]

Now...hmmm...what about the messages which popped up telling you of certain events, such as the Alexiad being completed or the Peasant Crusade? Would I be able to do anything similar to those, in that at the press of the turn button, one is told of an event, and say, farming output is increased in a certain province? Or would I be very limited for this?

Hardcoded AFAIK. The way to avoid them is to use a different timeframe, which you will be using. I'm pretty sure you can't add new ones.

I'd also love to have emerging factions...but, from the replies, it seems this idea might not make it... I'm guessing XL, since as it uses MTW's map, and isn't a full conversion, didn't have issues with emerging factions being included. But, what are my prospects, then?

The emerging factions are Golden Horde, Swiss and Burgundy. The GH always appear in the easter provinces in 1231. There is no way to stop them appearing AFAIK. Burgundy and the Swiss always appear in their provinces between certain dates if the loyalty their is low enough to allow a loyalist revolt, otherwise they don't appear. Using a different timeframe avoids the emerging factions, but I'm also pretty sure you can't add any new emerging factions.

Hmmm...as for the Marius Event thing...would I be able to do it so that there is, say, a 'Republic' era and an 'Empire' era (to coin phrases on the hoof)? In that, when you 'enter' the Empire era, you get new units available to build as the Romans, pretty much like the factions in MTW when you pass from Early to High, then High to Late? Or could I only implement one set of units the entire campaign?

You can use eras for this much like in MTW. You can have a pre marius era and a post marius era. The pre marius units become unavailable when the reforms occur and the new units become available then. You will have to set the year for this (BCE107), it cannot be a flexible date.

I don't know about the map, but would be interested in knowing also. Another factor is the maximum number of provinces. Even if you can create more of the east you may run out of provinces pretty quickly.

[cegorach]

The maximum is 107 provinces i.e. 8 more than in the vanilla map.

[Raz]

Surprisingly I was already making this exact mod not too long ago sometime last year, at least until my computer crashed.


I was using edited versions of the sprites from the Fall of Rome mod. They were coming along, neat little shields and what not. I was planning on calling it Roma Victor, or along the lines of.
Anyway, I'd be happy to help with this mod, descriptions and tedious chores such as the movement text files and such. I have so much more experience in modding MTW than RTW. ^_^

[the greek]

this should be geat good luck

[Ignoramus]

Any more progress?

[Ignoramus]

*Bump*

[axel]

Hi mate
Any progress in this fine mod your making mate???

[The Unknown Guy]

Some suggestions:

-Using religions as a substitute for culture: Old politheistic religions were strongly sychretistic, and as such, assimilated into the conçueror's belief system. Thus, it would be more "realistic" to remove religion altogether and replace it with the four "cultures" (Hellenic, Eastern...). This way, hovering over Greece or Rome would give you "Rome, an Hellenic -or whatever label- faction", for instance, and hovering over Carthage would give you "Carthage, an Eastern Faction". Also, instead of using priests, make it so that Culture-specific buildings spread that given culture (and in this example: Carthage, despite being on the "Western factions" game-culture, in the religion-culture setting it would be dubbed as Eastern, and be compatible with "Eastern but civilized factions")

-Instead of using culture as unit-limitator, dump the "civilized factions" such as Rome and Carthage in one group, the "Civilized but eastern" (such as Parthia) in another group, and barbarians in a third group. Use faction-specific units for each added faction, with some common culturals, and give culture the role of determining the base building tech, and the like

-Remove provinces from Eastern Russia in favor of increasing provinces in Western Europe and Northern Africa. That's where the action takes place anyway.

-Extend the game periods, as to have a "Republic", "Roman Civil Wars", "Principate(early Empire", and "Tetrarchy" (Late Empire, with split into Eastern and Western halves)

-To simulate the "barbarian invasions: high rebellion rate to Germania and other historically non-romanized provinces. Also, as the Tetrarchy era draws close, increase support costs for Roman units (to represent the political-economical crisis), and provide the barbarians with cheap units (and some decent "incoming tech", such as the Hun bow, or horseshoes. Romans should also get access to these "barbarian tech improvements", as they historically adapted, but it should be at a higher cost)
(that's all for now...)

[axel]

Hi
Is this mod still workt on as well?

[Wladyslaw IV]

Yes, please work on it.

Just copy most units from Fall of Rome. They should let you. Plus there are also many dormant Rome mods for MTW VI, you just have to look around for active links.

[Patrizius]

We are working on a mod called Res Bellicae.It was created for rome total war but we have decided to port it to med 2.So if youwant to join us just tell me(send me a pm).It would be a huge work but we are many.

[Caius]

Welcome to the org

Not a bad idea sir, but remember, there are troops which cant be trained after the Reforms.

I will help you historically talking

[Roman_Man#3]

I think someone already made this point, but use the Eras feature to simulate reforms. First Era troops would be:

Camillan Troops:
Leves
Hastati
Principes
Triarii
Accensi
Rorarii
Eqvites Romanvm

Second Era would represent Polybian Reforms:
Velites
Hastati
Principes
Triarii
Funditores
Eqvites Romanvm
Eqvites Consvlares

Third Era could Represent the introduction into republican Legions:

Look into these/ Use unit names from Roma Surrectum

Fourth Era would be Imperial Legions:

Look into these/ Use unit names from Roma Surrectum

[dimitrios the samian]

Fantastic !!! It certainly looks like this mod will create a lot of interest and to have such great support in so little time is very encouraging ,, Ok I must sign out now but I'll be emailing you tonite with very good news ,, cheers to all that are offering help ,, DTS

[Leith]

Caius Flaminius, oh, your knowledge of Roman history would be most appreciated! What I meant by my previous post is that we, those who are interested in creating this mod, could actually start doing something practical. I appreciate all the nice and constructive thoughts that have been put into this thread. In my view, things would progress better if we were discussing the different aspects of the mod while playing the Alpha build, for example. To this end, I have been fiddling with some unit graphics in an attempt to come up with some plausible Roman infantry units but it is very time-consuming.

The greatest challenge for this mod, in my humble opinion, is the graphical aspect, i.e creating Roman legions a la Rome: Total War (and even better ), Macedonian Phalangites who look and FIGHT like they should! Hellenic: Total War had awesome looking Hoplite infantry but their fighting animations were most disappointing. The same goes for most of the units in this mod (apart from Tower Shield pikemen--a unit found in the Bronze Age Expansion for HTW.

What gives me hope that this could be achieved is the superb animations made by Duke John, and others, in the Middle Earth: Total War Mod.

Back to Roman units' suggestions, I am no history expert but I remember that the early Roman units, mainly the Hastati, Principes and Triarii, had different equipment later on. For example, the Hastati and Principes' bronze helmets were replaced by iron ones, since the bronze helmets were vulnerbale to the "barbarians" longswords. If this is true, then we could have a first-generation Hastati, wearing a bronze helmet and a second generation Hastati, wearing an iron one. That could be represented graphically and statistically too.

I'd appreciate any information on what type of weapons/armour Roman units had. Recommeded websites/books would be great!

Cheers for now!

[axel]

Hi Leith
I cant mod, but i cane seek for information for you and ill will come with info site s asap

[Kaidonni]

Okay...I'll spend more time looking at work on this mod now. I still have other things to do, but I must prevent myself from descending into laziness.

The idea of having cultures instead of religion...perfect! It could possibly include:
1) Roman
2) Hellenic (The Ptolemaics included in this?)
3) Eastern
4) Barbarian

Just a jumping-off point, of course. Not sure whether we'd allow agents to have anything to do with it. Might be better to resort to special buildings that help speed up the cultural assimilation. EDIT: Oops, didn't read properly, you already said that...LOL!

Looking back at the factions and the map...I'd prefer more factions, a bit like XL, because it could make the map more interesting. I'm not really a fan for fields of rebels. Of course, that's just me, and since as other people want to help out, they have a say in it.

I personally would like to fit Parthia and Armenia in, and possibly Numidia. One of the mods from RTW I used to play (that game is uninstalled at the moment...this computer needs the space) was Lusted's Terrae Expugnandae (Land's To Conquer). He had numerous factions and extended the map in the mod (of course, such an extension would probably be out of the question for this mod).

As for the eras...any ideas are much appreciated. I myself have simplified my preference to that such as pre-Marian and post-Marian, but it might be too simplistic.

Thinking about the heirs system for the Romans...it might be better if they were allowed to 'elect' their leaders rather than limit them to having a family tree. Seems a bit more historic. But again, just my opinion.