What to do with useless generals?

**Gingivitis** · 02-12-2007, 23:43

I think the "security" stat a general gets provides additional units, but that's just a guess from my observations. Maybe I'll test it when I get home from work.

**Marquis of Roland** · 02-13-2007, 00:09

I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that you don't have to retrain your general units, as they automatically go back to full complement in a turn or two (nevermind, someone just did lol thats what I get for not reading thoroughly).

I keep my treasury under 50k at all times and I got minimal bad traits (compared to some people I've heard, sounds like their generals have every single bad trait in the game by being in a city for only 1 or 2 turns), the only one that is consistently popping up for me is "Wildly Extravagant". They usually have only 2 or 3 bad traits (and not the worst of those categories) and almost never more than 4. I have a general in every city. For promising field commanders I typically leave them in a settlement for a turn or 2 to pick up some positive traits, then send them off and they never see civilization again.

I think I'd rather take a general than a full heavy cav unit in my armies now, especially if I'm not Germany lol. The charges are so messed up in this game, I remember in RTW that if you charged with a longer line the guys on the extreme ends would actually turn after they pass the target and charge them in the back/flank. When I charge in this game, its really anyone's guess what'll happen next, I've seen weird things happen. Problem is I never have extra generals around.

Troop transport duty is a good idea.

If you want all your bad generals to die put them all in one army and send them up against Mongols or Timurids, at least you can enjoy the show of a suicidal charge, and hey, maybe you'll wipe a stack or so.

**LordKhaine** · 02-13-2007, 00:44

There is no such thing as a useless family member. Throw them into the meat grinder of battle and you may be suprised what comes out. Before many of my "useless" family members have really turned around and become amazing fighters, often even as far as high star generals. You can always counter a bad trait with good ones, after all.

I've always viewed insanity as simply giving the person more.. character?

**Foz** · 02-13-2007, 05:03

Originally Posted by LordKhaine

There is no such thing as a useless family member. Throw them into the meat grinder of battle and you may be suprised what comes out. Before many of my "useless" family members have really turned around and become amazing fighters, often even as far as high star generals. You can always counter a bad trait with good ones, after all.

I've always viewed insanity as simply giving the person more.. character?

Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

More on topic, the debates of this thread have led me to try something: I ran duplicate tests except for one thing: In one I used a bodyguard unit, in the other I modified that unit to have only 1 HP but twice as many members. Results follow:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The end result is that they performed nearly identically in terms of percentage of unit lost by the end of combat. That is to say, in terms of losses (percentage wise) and kills, a unit of 2HP cavalry w/ 20 members is equivalent to a unit with identical stats but only 1HP and 40 members. As the bodyguard generally have better stats than normal 40-man cav units, they will typically outperform 40 member cavalry units save for the few who have competitive or even better stats.

There is one other factor I noticed in all the tests though... experience. By the end of combat, the standard 20-man general's bodyguard unit in all 10 runs I put it through always accumulated 1 bronze chevron. In the 10 runs involving the modified 40-man bodyguard unit, never once did it accumulate 1 bronze chevron by the end of combat. I've already speculated in another thread that experience is driven per-man, and this find would be in keeping with that. Due to the lower unit size, the 20-man bodyguard unit much more quickly hits its experience breakpoints. 1 bronze for instance seems to need 2.0x unit size in kills to achieve. For the 20-man unit, this is only 40 kills, which it does pretty much without fail upon a successful charge. It should be noted that they don't need 40 kills total though... they need an average 2 kills per man. If only 15 survive, then they need 30 combined kills to be 1-bronze. For a 40-man cav unit, though, they need ~80 kills, an unachievable number against a single unit. They COULD gain a single bronze chevron if enough no-kill members died, leaving 60+ kills between the remaining 30 or less members, but in practice it doesn't generally go this way.

For me at least, the much more rapid experience gain, coupled with the fact that they automatically regenerate, makes bodyguards clearly preferable to pretty much any other cavalry.

**Drunkin General** · 02-13-2007, 15:46

Excellent posts Foz and I agree that the GB's are some of the best heavy cav around. Especially for factions that have to wait for a long time to get their true heavy cav ie Russia, Turks. One thing that I have noticed though is when you have more than 1 GB in an army that it can cause some weirdness with movement rates like lets say my main general has a bonus to movement, this applies to all units except the other GB's in the army.

edit : which might also affect the moral bonus

**Alcorr** · 02-14-2007, 07:15

Originally Posted by Foz

Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

More on topic, the debates of this thread have led me to try something: I ran duplicate tests except for one thing: In one I used a bodyguard unit, in the other I modified that unit to have only 1 HP but twice as many members. Results follow:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

The end result is that they performed nearly identically in terms of percentage of unit lost by the end of combat. That is to say, in terms of losses (percentage wise) and kills, a unit of 2HP cavalry w/ 20 members is equivalent to a unit with identical stats but only 1HP and 40 members. As the bodyguard generally have better stats than normal 40-man cav units, they will typically outperform 40 member cavalry units save for the few who have competitive or even better stats.

There is one other factor I noticed in all the tests though... experience. By the end of combat, the standard 20-man general's bodyguard unit in all 10 runs I put it through always accumulated 1 bronze chevron. In the 10 runs involving the modified 40-man bodyguard unit, never once did it accumulate 1 bronze chevron by the end of combat. I've already speculated in another thread that experience is driven per-man, and this find would be in keeping with that. Due to the lower unit size, the 20-man bodyguard unit much more quickly hits its experience breakpoints. 1 bronze for instance seems to need 2.0x unit size in kills to achieve. For the 20-man unit, this is only 40 kills, which it does pretty much without fail upon a successful charge. It should be noted that they don't need 40 kills total though... they need an average 2 kills per man. If only 15 survive, then they need 30 combined kills to be 1-bronze. For a 40-man cav unit, though, they need ~80 kills, an unachievable number against a single unit. They COULD gain a single bronze chevron if enough no-kill members died, leaving 60+ kills between the remaining 30 or less members, but in practice it doesn't generally go this way.

For me at least, the much more rapid experience gain, coupled with the fact that they automatically regenerate, makes bodyguards clearly preferable to pretty much any other cavalry.

Well you guys can say what you want, I always find 40 cav units of more use. Perhaps it is because the 20 man gen unit may be better for fighting, but 40 men is better for running down enemies which is all i use my cavalry for anyways. Seriously, the battle AI is so bady I don't think my hvy cavalry have actually ever killed any enemy that hasn't already been fleeing....

Only about 1/4 of the unit (~10 men) is actually in a good position to connect with a charge, and that's assuming a frontal attack. In side charges, this is even less. The narrow nature of a general's unit gives it an advantage here as well, as the same 10 men in the middle are in great position to charge, it's just that they are higher quality troops now with bigger attack and charge bonuses than most cavalry. If more than 20 men at a time could be reasonably expected to connect with a given charge then your argument would be valid, but as they typically do not, it holds no water.

10 men?!?! Thats simply not true. Not to mention normally when the units charge 4-5 cavalry will be lost on the charge even when not facing pike units. I always get at LEAST 20 to hit on target, often times more...

I always use my second and third ranks of cavalry in the unit to connect. Do you have the patch?

**Fookison** · 02-14-2007, 07:36

Use the useless generals in an army to deal with those rebel armies that are always lurking along roadways in the shadows of your regions. That way, some of these generals do develop over time and eventually prove their worth. If not, they make great spearmen fodder..........

**-Silent-Pariya** · 02-14-2007, 13:32

What i like to do is have an assortment of spies and genrals accross the board... ill look at enemy armies and rebel armies and find one with no cavalry in it.
I take 1 or 2 of my generals and kill the whole army whether it be 900 men or 100. All you do is charge... pull back before the last lines/other units start
getting hit points on ur men and charge again... make sure you always charge back out of archer range... reform neatly and recharge....keep doing this and if
your unit gets tired run him to the farthest corner and let him rest till the enemy reaches u again.

I enjoy having all my generals being 10 command n 10 dread with loads of character traits like conquering hero brutally scareed utterly couragies ect.

Also, you would be suprised how easily it is to turn a useless general into a good one with just a few heroic victories.

**LordKhaine** · 02-14-2007, 21:46

Originally Posted by Foz

Some inquisitor is gonna get him, lol.

He's not catholic!

**Foz** · 02-15-2007, 02:48

Originally Posted by LordKhaine

He's not catholic!

Lol I didn't even look! In that case... perhaps his god will smite him for his wayward ways. One of those "act of God" things

**JCoyote** · 02-15-2007, 03:26

No general is useless. Even the worst general allows you to control what is and isn't being constructed in a town. If he's bad enough he's detrimental to the public order, just have him sit next to the town so he can pop in, get some stuff done, then head out and fight rebels.

I usually have a handful of such "field governors" that only go to town when I need something done there.