Is Milan to Strong?

[Musashi]

As a matter of fact, if an assassin succeeds against one of your people, the message you get is "natural death". You only find out about the assassin if he fails and gets caught.

So if you have generals or agents dying suspiciously young, someone is probably using assassins against you.

[pat the magnificent]

As a matter of fact, if an assassin succeeds against one of your people, the message you get is "natural death". You only find out about the assassin if he fails and gets caught.

So if you have generals or agents dying suspiciously young, someone is probably using assassins against you.

one naturally tends to die when they're stabbed in the heart.

[sapi]

As a matter of fact, if an assassin succeeds against one of your people, the message you get is "natural death". You only find out about the assassin if he fails and gets caught.

So if you have generals or agents dying suspiciously young, someone is probably using assassins against you.

That makes no sense (but you're probably right)

Stabbing and poisoning would be obvious, wouldn't you think?

[JCoyote]

Stabbing and poisoning would be obvious, wouldn't you think?

Stabbing? Yes. Poisoning back then? No.

Remember, this was an age when the average life expectancy was still often around 35. That's not to say 35 was old, but that many diseases and maladies befell people the killed them often, at any given age.

With many poisons available then, the target would often have just apparently fallen ill and died... tragic, but not uncommon for the time.

[_Tristan_]

As far as whether Milan is a strong faction in the game, it is IMO, I think mainly because of what deathfire mentioned, their good units are militia units and cheap to maintain, whereas most people surrounding them (except probably Venice) have to build castle troops. This is why I think France always gets wiped out, their good units are expensive to build and probably can't build too much either since they're elite units (and basically 4 countries attack them). Those two cities they have are also rich, and with two cities your yearly expenditures will be very low.

I have to disagree...

Playing as the French in a patched H/H campaign, I've just finished Milan in one turn... on turn 70 or so...

Milan was holding at the time Genoa, Venice, Florence and Bern.

Milan was in the hands of the Sicilian with whom I was at war from two turns before when he attacked Dijon. Responding to that I took Milan...

What happened ?

Milan took Bern (from Rebels) and attacked Marseille (French-owned) at almost the same time thus declaring war on me... Wa had an equal standing with the Pope (Lvl 9).

I sallied from Marseille and booted him back to Genoa...
I followed up and attacking jis army outside the gates, drew the city defenders into the fray... Score one city for me...

At the same time, my general from Dijon retook Bern from those Milanese mongrels...

The next turn, though I tried to get a ceasefire, he refused and sent his heir Count Nicola to reclaim Milan from Venice.

At the same time, one of my 12-eye assassin (Yes my king was Philippe the Tyrant with 9 dread and over 10 authority) happened to notice than the Milanese faction leader Duke Solderino the Honest was a potential target in Florence (34%). Worth trying even if risky...

The last member of the line was located by my spies taking a stroll through the venetian country... Alone...

So, my assassin performed his mission with success thus making Count Nicola the new faction leader and the other one (can't remember his name) became the new heir.

I then sent two generals unit from Genoa to catch and kill him...

Last but not least I sent a relief army from Genoa to Milan and sallied out.
The new milanese Duke was sent to hell when a shot from a trebuchet gave him a first taste of the flames of hell...

Then it was a walk in the park...

So is Milan too strong ? I don't think so...

I've had more problems with Portugal and Spain or even Sicily than Milan

[Midnight]

Pretty much any AI is in trouble vs a human, though...

I think the point is that Milan always does incredibly well vs other AI factions, and in my games they always carve deep into France (unless I'm nearby, when the manic "dogpile-the-player" mentality sets in with everyone). It's got to be a combination of good, cheap units from cities, lots of cash and accessible French targets nearby. Venice never does nearly so well (although they often cripple themselves by sending a huge army over to Africa [why?!], thus leaving their European lands vulnerable).

I'd like to see another AI smash Milan occassionally, but it doesn't hugely bother me as is.

[Juergen Geist]

I have been watching and reading the forums for a few months, and have decided to post a reply to this thread as I think that Milan is both a pain in the arse...and that they can be quickly dispatched.

If you dont want Milan to pose a problem later for you... just rid yourself of them... I have Played thru with the French and HRE twice.. both on Medium and Hard settings.

When I was either the French or HRE I prepared for Conquest against the Milanese, seeing there utter Phsycotic behavior in prior games, along with the Dutch.

Conquering them may take some pre-planning but it is feasable. As HRE I became probably the most powerful, in Coin and Army strength. My boundries had put the Dutch in a corner, and extended a little East, and as far south as the Papal states of Rome. I then decided to go further East, wiping out Hungary in the process so that I could have better access to Constatinople.

Playing the French, I allied myself with HRE, and made freinds with the Polish and Spain. The Milanese and Dutch always attack no matter what, so as the French I decided to attack the Northern Rebels first, not only cutting the English off, but not giving the Dutch a chance to take any Port cities I could use.

After that was complete, I set my sites for England... at the Same time beefing up my South Western borders from the Spanish and Portugal. By the Time England was almost finnished I began my campaign to the East vs the Milanese as I did not want the HRE to be destroyed. By turn 185 I had aproximately 38 provinces. Again not difficult if you dont mind being ex-communicated... and who cares what the Pope thinks when he does not punish the bloody Milanese for being Warmongers....LOL

I enjoy playing the French or HRE, and the English. Next I think I will try the Byzantine's

[Goofball]

Are you sure these are not captains? I've never seen a stack just spawn a general without being in combat.

I have. Playing as Scotland, I controlled all of the British Isles. The Spanish landed a full stack army led by a family member in Whales, then just sat there without attacking. I sent a ten star assassin and killed him. I hit end turn and watched to my surprise as the army marker changed from "captain" to "general" during Spain's turn.

"That's odd," I thought. So I whacked the new family member. End turn. All of a sudden there is another Spanish general who has appeared in the stack.

Lather, rince, repeat 12 more times.

Finally I just sent an army to wipe out the stack.

[Foz]

Rolling with what Tristan said about Milan being quite easy to defeat, I've found this only to generally be the case when you start out very close to them, typically sharing borders. France and HRE are among the factions positioned to reach Milan very early in the game, and as such when you play those factions Milan seems largely like any other faction you encounter early in the game in any campaign. Milan really only becomes a powerhouse when you're playing a faction that reaches Milan in the mid or late game stages, as its had a lot of time to beat down its AI neighbors by that point and rake in obscene amounts of money from its starting provinces, at which point it is often fielding a lot of stacks. So in general I would say that the superiority of Milan is only really a big factor when it survives into the mid to late game stages. You might get a good feel for this if you play Portugal/Spain and set about conquering your way through Europe. Russia may be another good example if you're trying to ensure you encounter Milan once it's had adequate time to really develop. Even a faction seemingly as close as England often gives Milan a chance to gain momentum, as England is often more concerned with taking over the isles before it starts pushing through Europe.

[_Tristan_]

I have. Playing as Scotland, I controlled all of the British Isles. The Spanish landed a full stack army led by a family member in Whales, then just sat there without attacking. I sent a ten star assassin and killed him. I hit end turn and watched to my surprise as the army marker changed from "captain" to "general" during Spain's turn.

"That's odd," I thought. So I whacked the new family member. End turn. All of a sudden there is another Spanish general who has appeared in the stack.

Lather, rince, repeat 12 more times.

Finally I just sent an army to wipe out the stack.

On the subject of generals appearing...

I have seen it happen time and again and it was already a feature in RTW..

When you kill an army general, a captain takes his place... If you look closely on the next turn you will see that the new general is in fact the Captain raised to general (same first name with the additio of a surname or DE or OF XXXX...)

I think it's a kind of reversed MOTH giving the AI a chance to get more generals...

I've seen in this forum somewhere there was a max cap to the number of generals so why not imagine there is also a min cap...

Finally, FOZ, I tend to agree that Milan must not be let to develop too far as it is a big money machine and in the latter stages may well become very hard to defeat...

Ralatively to the other posts, it's one of the most agressive faction perhaps with Sicily and one of the rare ones to make intensive use of spies and assassins, I have to agree so leaving a lot of spies and assassins on a common border might be a good idea...

[Bobo]

Well, in my E/E (don't laugh, okay) campaign as English Milan was pretty passive. They had lost Milan and Genoa to Venice but had managed to keep Bern. I didn't see many agents at all (probably because Bern is a Castle, though). It was Venice that was extremely aggressive and kept attacking me with full stacks after I had gotten rid of France. Denmark was also quite aggressive. It may just be one of those 'glitches' as others have pointed out. In general, the level of aggression of most factions tends to drop later in the game, and only a small number of factions keep trying to expand. Could that be because the others have obtained their scripted target cities? But then I should expect every faction to try to get to Jerusalem and/or Constantinople, but they never come.
Btw: now I am playing as Milan and I absolutely love them.

[Quillan]

From a pure trading standpoint, I think Genoa is one of the most valuable cities in the game. It generates income like Athens or Sparta did in RTW, primarily because it has easy trade links with Florence, Rome, Ajaccio, Cagliari, and Palermo. In my Venetian campaign, it made more money per turn than Venice did. The Aegean Sea isn't the gold mine it was in RTW; the reduction in the number of provinces over there reduced the trade value significantly. Venice can trade with Ragusa (castle), Durazzo (tiny) or Naples, of the nearby cities, and Naples is the only one that generates significant value. Bologna is too close to trade, I'm pretty sure.

Combine high money with cheap troops and Milan can produce larger armies than most factions in the early going. Venice is scattered, while Milan is compact. This gives them an edge. Milan usually winds up taking Dijon, in my experience, and almost always winds up with Florence no matter who gets it first.

[Skyline Pete]

Could that be because the others have obtained their scripted target cities?

There are no 'target' cities other than those stated in the objectives. I've modified my short campaigns to include specific city objectives and the AI seems to follow it to a degree.

For example I gave the Byzantines a bunch of specific cities to capture and they went about doing exactly that.

[Bobo]

There are no 'target' cities other than those stated in the objectives. I've modified my short campaigns to include specific city objectives and the AI seems to follow it to a degree.

For example I gave the Byzantines a bunch of specific cities to capture and they went about doing exactly that.

Then why doesn't anyone go after Jerusalem? That is in most faction's long campaign objectives. Nobody ever came close to attacking me except the Mongols. Or is it because I'm on E/E? (Of course, I'm only playing on E/E for research purposes... )

[gardibolt]

In my game, Jerusalem has been held successively by Egypt, HRE, the Mongols, the Pope, the Timurids, the Pope again, and the Timurids again.

I'm playing as the English on M/M---I have more than 45 territories, but I'm enjoying the back and forth over Jerusalem. I'll probably wait till turn 224 (I'm on 208) before taking it.