The best formation mod out there?

[Dayve]

I've just started playing 0.8 properly for the first time, and it has come to my attention that although the rest of the mod is top notch, 10 out of 10, it seems the AI formations have been done by an under-acheiving chimpanzee. As soon as any battle starts, the AI starts to run back and forth tiring its men, it splits its army up into two or sometimes even 3 groups, which at first glance looks like they might have a plan, but as soon as you engage one part of their army the other two just stand there and wait their turn to be slaughtered. When i march my army close to theirs they continually run backwards to get away from them, holding off the engagement for as long as possible even if the odds are in their favour, until they reach the red line, at which point they will begin to run around the line...

Speed up the battle, put in some Benny Hill music and you've got yourself a laugh or two.

like i say, the rest of the mod is really top notch, 10 out of 10, worthy of kings, but what is with the AI formations?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Why is there a need to throw trash like this out there? "it seems the AI formations have been done by an under-acheiving chimpanzee." Seriously. You've got a legitimate question, but I will tell you that the people who have worked on them deserve a lot more respect (and certainly get it from team members) than this. I wouldn't be surprised if there's no rush to help reply to your question.

[Numahr]

I, for one, geatly appreciate the work done on formations. In various occasions, I had the occasion to witness that the AI is pushed to the limit of what can be handled by the hardcoded limitations:
- proactive yet never suicidal skirmishers
- cavalry trying to flank me
- infantry 2nd line in reserve engaging when appropriate
- consistent wall assault

Then, of course, I could list a looong list of stupid decisions... but come on Dayve, we all know the AI has its hard-coded flaws, and I would not even blame CA for those considering how tricky it must be to set up all these rules for an AI to react well to the unexpectable human player.

So I take profit of this thread to congratulate the responsibles for EB formations, which are very effective compared to the more well-known ones: you've made a great job guys, and be sure it is appreciated :)

[Geoffrey S]

Oh, it's you again.

[Ludens]

The problem is that both Darth and Sinuhet have made faction-specific formations for their latests formation packs, and since EB juggled the factions around they won't work properly with this mod. There is a formations mod for EB though, but I never tried it so I cannot say how it works. You can find it here.

[Dayve]

You're kidding? People actually worked on the formations? People on the EB team? I thought you guys were just leaving the formations until last or something, or just leaving them as they were in vanilla and letting people choose their own formation mods.

If people actually worked on the battle AI then i must apologise, i honestly thought that nobody worked on them yet because they are so utterly horrible, just like in vanilla RTW.

There's no point trying to deny it or flame me for it, the current AI is worse than bad and in my opinion entirely game killing. You have this wonderful mod with all this information about ancient buildings, traits, biographies, realistic units, good unit animations... The only thing letting it down is the AI on the battlefield, constantly running away, bunching all its units up to allow itself to be easily surrounded and flanked, always engaging the entire army rather than holding some in reserve, basically just ruining a battle every time.

If nobody appreciates honesty anymore that's fine, i'll go and have a look for a formation mod myself, i'm sure i can find a couple of good ones in a short space of time.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Will you actually read what I wrote? I said you had a legitimate question, but saying a bunch of chimpanzees must have done the current AI work is just incredibly rude. Honesty is one thing, being a little twerp is another. You apologize and then get mad and say we are denying it and people are flaming you. Blah.

[Brightblade]

Not very bright, aren´t we mate? Life 101. Do not insult those you seek answers-help from, it´s counterproductive!!

Secondly, I do not think it´s a formational issue if the AI is dumb as a box of bricks and chooses to move some units and others. I´d wager formations were made, in this mod, to be accurate and historical, not to aid the stupid AI as a primary objective.

You may suggest there are more ahistorical and perhaps inaccurate formations that allow the AI to perform better in battle, in particular with phalanx lines that seem to break up endlessly if they are approaching you. I would wager that would gain you more of a positive response.

[Foot]

Rabble rabble rabble rabble

Teleklos said that you had a legitimate question, he (and now I) took offence at your derogratory remarks about the EB team members who worked on the formation part of EB; but that is all.

No one has told you to shut up, or go away. Ludens has answered your question, Geoffrey S has made a remark about your return, and Numahr has defended EB's formations as being on the whole quite good.

Where is the flame? Certainly there is a denial that you are right, Numahr indicates that his opinion is different from yours (which you must agree is as legitimate as yours, seeing as you both have different experiances of the game), but I that cannot amount to him not appreciating honesty.

Basically, what is your problem?

Foot

[Brightblade]

PS Dayve you smell like my armpit after a thousand hot summers in a South Pacific jungle in heavy combat gear. Am I not poetic enough? Now, can you please lend me some money? By the way I´m sorry if my insult insults you.

A quick summary of your line of thought which is very narrow, rather brittle and ultimately RATHER SHORT.

[Dayve]

Oh well, i'll try the thing Ludens posted for me. You guys continue playing with the way the AI currently behaves, doesn't bother me. Have fun watching the AI run all the way across the map as soon as the battle starts, then splitting its army up into 3 parts, then sitting idly as you slaughter one unit at a time, one by one, as it sits there and does not react to anything you do.

[fallen851]

Where is the flame?

Why is there a need to throw trash like this out there?

Calling someone's comments trash is flaming them. Furthermore referring to what someone said as

Rabble rabble rabble rabble

is disrepecting them too.

[Brightblade]

Let me play the world's smallest violin as I weep bitter tears of sadness that you're actually going to shut up.

While I do this, I answer your question as well... Is it the EB team's fault, who does ALL this hard work for, ahm, FREE, that the AI is dumber than you are? Or is it Creative Assembly's fault, whom you paid money to to receive a faulty, inaccurate, and unfinished product?

I hope this wisdom illuminates your otherwise feeble mind.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Hmm, I have noticed this problem too - although saying "a chimpanzee" designed the formations is going a little bit too far. I'm sure that this is just a tiny technical glitch that the EB team have experienced and they plan to fix it in the near future. I am also sure that those designing the formations are experts in the field of formation designing.

May I suggest to the EB team that they lock this rather de-constructive thread before we get a full blown flame war

[fallen851]

Wow, why is it that everytime some criticizes the EB team does a band of EB henchmen come along and flame?

Of course everyone here stands against it when goes against EB, but no stands against it when it goes against those who criticize EB...

On another note, I think designing formations is possibly the hardest thing to do for RTW, and there is only one person who can balanced them effectively, that is Darth.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Because it is trash fallen. Specifically the part where he says under-achieving chimpanzees must have done it. That's trash. You want to argue that? Well, of course you do.

[abou]

Wow, why is it that everytime some criticizes the EB team, does a band of EB henchmen, come along and flame?

Of course everyone here stands against it when goes against EB, but no stands against it when it goes against those who criticize EB...

It isn't that EB is criticized, Fallen; it is how it is done that upsets the team.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

This thread is irredemable at this point. Dayve, if you want to ask the question about further formation changes in EB, this time without the insults, then feel free to start a new thread - I'm deleting this one in a few hours and closing it right now. Any of this mess that is brought from here into the new one (if it is posted) will get deleted immediately.

[khelvan]

I direct you to this post, if you want an explanation as to why this happened. I don't think I can be more clear.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193