A start on the .MESH file format

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Grumpy,

Piggy backing on the idea of forming a equipment library, it would most likely make more sense to convert the mesh files in the weapons, shields and equipment libraries found under the data/unit models folder.

Is this something that you have already done? or can you manipulate the converter code to handle them. Right now I just get an error saying the mesh is not setup correctly. Just something to think about...

AT

[Casuir]

Hey, sorry I havent done any testing on this for you but my Ms3d trial period has expired and I dont have the spare cash to fork out for the full version. Been very busy with work as well so probably wouldnt have been able to do much anyways. V Good work though well done to all.

@AT The weapons and equipment in those folders are straight exports from max used by CA to compile the ingame models, they mightnt be set up correctly for ingame use.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Casuir

Yes, you are right about the libraries, but I believe there is a possibility that they could be converted to ms3d as well and could provide an ample supply of equipment without having to extract them from unit meshes. Grumpy would be the one to confirm that though.

@All,
I have been working on getting the helmets extracted.

I also read over the tutorials that Grumpy pointed me too, and I finally have my mind wrapped around texturing within MS. I was able to add a hvy burgonet (tercio pike ug2) and a light burgonet (tercio pike ug1) to Italian Spear Militia "ug0". I was also able to texture by scaling down the actual groups used for the helmets I added and placing them over the texture area for the helmets used by the peasant archer ug2... did ya all get that??!!!

What I tried to do is use the existing texture without having to manipulate too much. This served well. I would post an image, but I need to remove some heads so I don't have long hair popping out beyond the helmets in back.

I will finish this tonight and post thumbnails for everyone tomorrow.

This is the wonderful thing about these meshes, When I added the first Burgonet, it was placed on all the figures within the unit, then I added the second one and then it mixed them up. My other test is to remove all the heads except one and see if it places them consistently on all the units removing the "big hair" issue...

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT

@Casuir

Yes, you are right about the libraries, but I believe there is a possibility that they could be converted to ms3d as well and could provide an ample supply of equipment without having to extract them from unit meshes. Grumpy would be the one to confirm that though.

I haven't looked at the weapons there but I know that the CA development meshes had mixed up skeletons, making them useless for modding (this is why I blocked them in the converter). Extracting them from unit meshes has the benefit of correct bone assignments, etc. Once you become a bit more experienced, I honestly can't see it taking more than 60 seconds to isolate and save a specific group or bunch of groups. And when you've done it once for halberds for example, you don't have to do it again. It's there in a file waiting to be used.

@All,
I have been working on getting the helmets extracted.

I also read over the tutorials that Grumpy pointed me too, and I finally have my mind wrapped around texturing within MS. I was able to add a hvy burgonet (tercio pike ug2) and a light burgonet (tercio pike ug1) to Italian Spear Militia "ug0". I was also able to texture by scaling down the actual groups used for the helmets I added and placing them over the texture area for the helmets used by the peasant archer ug2... did ya all get that??!!!

What I tried to do is use the existing texture without having to manipulate too much. This served well. I would post an image, but I need to remove some heads so I don't have long hair popping out beyond the helmets in back.

I will finish this tonight and post thumbnails for everyone tomorrow.

This is the wonderful thing about these meshes, When I added the first Burgonet, it was placed on all the figures within the unit, then I added the second one and then it mixed them up. My other test is to remove all the heads except one and see if it places them consistently on all the units removing the "big hair" issue...

AT

Well done AT, you're coming along in leaps and bounds, you've picked up the basics easily. Anything I add here is just an unwarranted intrusion into your creative process

Edit:- If you're feeling really adventurous, you could use a full headed head (as long as the helmets fit over it ok) and make the second helmet optional .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[KnightErrant]

@AT
Just to remind you, you're charting upknown waters for the rest
of us, please write everyting down so you can make a good tutuorial
for us. We're loving everything you're learning. Tell us how you did it!

Wanting to switch out weapons too!

KE

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Just a quick question and flight of fantasy, who's going to be the first to modify a figure and use it in the three empty officer slots for a unit. No more generic, home-brand officers, won't that look good .

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

@KE
Your pm inbox is full EOM

[Bongfu]

This is awesome. Now my team can do some editing of the models to begin our work on our Greco-Persian War mod for M2TW.

[KnightErrant]

@Caliban,

Oops, thanks, I've cleared some space.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@All,

Screenie as promised...


My next project may be the dismounted knights with spear/foot lance and sword. I haven't decided yet which unit I want to do this...

Though I may dive into learning how to modify the actual meshes... I would like to make several new neoclassical burgonets, one with a horsehair plume. I also plan to modify the base spear, not make it so harpoon like... and change the head on the pike (maybe adding different style pike heads)...

edit:
(my next thing I am doing tonight is breaking out all the halberds... both european and me...)

Only problem is job, wife and kids... So it may be awhile...

@Grumpy
Have you been able to convert any siege engines or artillery?

Also (and I am getting ambitious here...) ...buildings? Nothing that has to be done right now, just looking into the future for further modifications for my mod...

I have yet to send you any cas's from RTR, I am having a hard time deciding which ones!!! RTR has awesome units...

@KE
Yes, I am keeping an eye on tutorial stuff. I will most likely being working on one after I learn how to modify the actual mesh. MilkShape has a wonderful tutorial which is simple and fairly easy to follow. That is how i learned to work on the texture coordinates and scale... My tutorial would focus on just simple how to's and where you can find more detailed info for modification.

AT

[KnightErrant]

@AT
Good news on the tut, the how to's would be great.
I've done a few artillery skeletons but then I noticed
that siege engines follow the Aztec variant set up,
with the tangent space info in a different place.
My script took them over to ms3d with no hitch but
I don't have anything in place to go backwards yet.
Just a matter of time and coding as each piece has its
own unique skeleton.

[methoz]

any tool for us ? ISM looks nice :)

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM and KE,

Hey guys, on breaking out weapons, do you think we need all lod's??? or just the lod0?

I could probably move faster breaking out just the lod0, but I am not sure how much effect that would have on graphics if you merge a lod0 with like a lod2 or lod3. Is it any big deal?

AT

[Roman_Man#3]

Where would I find Milkshape? I want to get it, but I have no idea where...cam someone give me a link please?


RM3

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Roman Man #3

Here you go!!!

http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/

It's $25 registration fee to obtain your code, otherwise you have a trial for 30 days. Its worth the money, considering 3dsmax is out of most people's budget...

Grumpy has built a converter/merger/exporter that works wonderfully, but he has not fully released it yet. It is still in alpha.

AT

[Roman_Man#3]

Thanks. and isn't GOM also working on a .cas script so you can import RTW models?

RM3

Wait. So you download it, then you need to buy the registration code?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AT

@GOM and KE,

Hey guys, on breaking out weapons, do you think we need all lod's??? or just the lod0?

I could probably move faster breaking out just the lod0, but I am not sure how much effect that would have on graphics if you merge a lod0 with like a lod2 or lod3. Is it any big deal?

AT

From what I've seen looking around various meshes, shields are the same in all lods, weapons, generally lod0 and lod1 are the same, lod2 and lod3 are the same. You could get valid figures by using only lod0 weapons but remember any extra triangles are putting a strain on your graphics card, and something that might work on your machine, will slow somebody else's to a crawl.

So if you're making something to only run on your machine, go as detailed as you like, if you want to share then be mindful of others limitations with graphics cards.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@GOM,

Looks like I will be doing all lods...

I only got a souped up video card just a couple of months ago. I know what its like to be frustrated with outmoded graphics hardware...

Thanks

AT

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi All

Yes, I've finally bitten the bullet and released the beta

Bear in mind that this is the first release and it only supports human figures at this stage.

Mounts will follow shortly and KE is doing stirling work looking at Engines. The beta release is at http://rapidshare.com/files/24060090...a_1_6.zip.html . I tried to upload it here but couldn't find any upload links. I've talked to the moderators and maybe they can arrange to have it here.

There is a basic readme included with the zip. Read it, because if you ask me a question on something covered in the doc, you'll find out why they call me GrumpyOldMan.

Zxiang1983 has done an excellent basic tutorial on modifying a mesh and getting it into the game. You can find this at http://rapidshare.com/files/23918713/basic_tutorial.doc . Again well worth reading.

If you're a newbie to 3d modelling and/or Milkshape, I had a quick look with Google and apart from Milkshapes own tutorial link page http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/tutorials.html the page at http://www.angelfire.com/magic/bastd..._tutorial.html on how to add a crown has got lots of good info on manipulation and http://learngamedesign.com/gdt_A7.html and the other tutorials linked to that page have also got lots of info.

@@@@@Alpha testers - beta 0.16 has a small change because ramrods were being mapped to the wrong texture. The readme has also changed to take into account the smoothing line issue and the resolution of that problem, the 'Optional' flag for groups and a small acknowledgement paragraph (don't be upset if you're not there ) Alpha testers, don't hesitate to contact me by PM.

Everybody else don't try to PM about issues, start a thread at https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=176 and anybody with the knowledge or I will reply there.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[zxiang1983]

Congratulations on the release! It's a big day in M2TW history!

[KnightErrant]

Second that!
Bravo on a great day in M2TW history.
(Feeling better now.) Many smilies due here as well
as a kudos. (Smilies follow...)

[AlphaDelta1]

GOM,

I've noticed that using the Menu/Tools/Model Information 1.7 method to resolve the smoothing line actually applies far too much smoothing all over the mesh.

I wonder if there's a plugin out there for ms3d that allows you to smooth faces with a specific smoothing angle?

Cheers

[Luciano B]

Thanks a lot GrumpyOldMan
...that's a great contribution to the community :)

[alpaca]

Finally people will be able to edit models, I just hope we'll have enough decent modellers to work on things

[Herkus]

My gratitude to everyone who worked on this tool.

[Bwian]

AAAaaaaarrrghhh! You CRUEL CRUEL CRUEL MAN!

You release this tool on the day I go away for a 10 day holiday several thousand miles away from my computer.....

Well... that's life ;) At least I will be fully refreshed and ready to work with it when I get back :D

[zxiang1983]

@GOM
I have a small question. I tried to scale a shield by 2 times larger and during this process I find that every time I scale a mesh group then this group becomes invisible in Texture Coordinate Editor, though it still uses the original texture. Is it suppose to be so?

[AliAS]

Great work

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi AD1

GOM,

I've noticed that using the Menu/Tools/Model Information 1.7 method to resolve the smoothing line actually applies far too much smoothing all over the mesh.

I wonder if there's a plugin out there for ms3d that allows you to smooth faces with a specific smoothing angle?

Cheers

The main problem is that we're calculating normals, tangents, etc from the vertex information stored in the ms3d. You could use any sort of smoothing angle you like within milkshape but it won't show unless you make some changes to the vertices. The only way around this is to individually select vertices within groups and weld them to lose the lines that are a problem - pretty labour intensive. As long as the welds are within groups, the converter will still produce a valid .MESH file. What the model information process does is weld all vertices within a group, so we can get an overall averaged normal.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Congratulations and excellent work on the release!