A start on the .MESH file format

[Casuir]

How does this affect your mesh converter GOM, will it be able to handle different skeletons?

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir

How does this affect your mesh converter GOM, will it be able to handle different skeletons?

It will have to be rewritten to work with any skeletons that don't match the bone hierarchy, configuration and names. But if I'm right and we can control the appearance of a figure through the cas anim files then if people use the same basic skeleton configuration (ie not adding or deducting bones or changing the hirearchy) the mesh converter will still work. Probably the first step is to get a converter to extract animations into the cas anim format. Next I can look at rewriting the mesh converter to work with non-standard skeletons.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

...Probably the first step is to get a converter to extract animations into the cas anim format. Next I can look at rewriting the mesh converter to work with non-standard skeletons.

You should be able to import your mesh into 3dsmax from Milkshape via .smd and then use Verc's script (or our official CAS exporter) to export .CAS anim files.

This is why we released the official CAS exporter but I have only heard of people having version problems with it. It seems to work fine on all of our machines here running 3dsmax7 and 8.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban

You should be able to import your mesh into 3dsmax from Milkshape via .smd and then use Verc's script (or our official CAS exporter) to export .CAS anim files.

This is why we released the official CAS exporter but I have only heard of people having version problems with it. It seems to work fine on all of our machines here running 3dsmax7 and 8.

I grabbed a demo of max 7 from an old 3d mag I had lying around, got the Service Pack 1 update and loaded your plugin. I got the exact same message everybody else was getting ie incompatible version. The only thing I can think of was maybe it was written for 7.5 or Viz or relies on another plugin. I'll leave it on until the trial runs out in case anybody comes up with a solution. In the meantime I'll play with other formats, import, export, etc. We can't use Verc's exporter because it only exports the truncated anim files as found in the pack.dat file. Incidentally does your process/exporter work off bones or point helpers?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

GOM .... with your MESH tool, will you be able to re-write it to accomodate mounts etc. as well as non-standard skeletons?

The python script thing doesn't seem to be as usable as your tool, and I would much prefer to have a single tool that did it all for me, rather than multiple tools!

This is really good news for the Warhammer team though! It means I can make Dwarves, Orcs and such like using modified skeletons.

One thing I wondered though....

Would it be possible to change the base positions of the skeleton without having to completely re-write all the animations? I was wondering if there was a way to just keep the rotational changes in the animation files and apply them to a new skeleton? This way, a new skeleton could have all the same moves without masses of extra work! ( I'm just so lazy!!! )

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

GOM .... with your MESH tool, will you be able to re-write it to accomodate mounts etc. as well as non-standard skeletons?

Yes, I'm looking at a rewrite for the converter but I want to wait until we sort out the animations etc so I can make any conversion compatible with the animations.

This is really good news for the Warhammer team though! It means I can make Dwarves, Orcs and such like using modified skeletons.

One thing I wondered though....

Would it be possible to change the base positions of the skeleton without having to completely re-write all the animations? I was wondering if there was a way to just keep the rotational changes in the animation files and apply them to a new skeleton? This way, a new skeleton could have all the same moves without masses of extra work! ( I'm just so lazy!!! )

A fine try at avoiding work, failed miserably, but nevertheless, a fine try . The anim files also include such details as, per frame, height above ground and movement across the ground. If you change any of the skeleton positions it puts these numbers out as well. You could calculate it but in the end it would be easier to load the animation into an anim prog, change the skeleton and adjust everything manually. So yes it is possible but you're going to have to manually adjust every frame anyway.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

If its not to much work grumpy would it be possible to rework the texturing code to assaign textures by co-ords rather than group type like I suggested earlier.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Casuir

If its not to much work grumpy would it be possible to rework the texturing code to assaign textures by co-ords rather than group type like I suggested earlier.

It could be done but there is then the problem, when looking at texture coords in isolation, of where does 'u' value of .5 go, is it the extreme right edge of the figure texture or the extreme left edge of the attachments texture, you could possibly end up with texture coords for one group spread over two textures. It only takes three actions to change the material for a group, it's not that difficult to move uv coords (especially now that the TCE in 1.8.1 has a lock x and lock y ability) and the converter to mesh only looks at the material when reconverting the uv coords. It would probably be more trouble than it was worth to do it that way, because I'd have to put in a check for the other uv coords for that group to make sure it was going in the right texture.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

can't blame a guy for trying

If the animations work like they did in RTW, then it should just be a question of adjusting the root bone start positions, and applying the samechange in translation on the Z axis to set it on the ground. The rest of hte movements are relative to this, so the actual movements could be preserved. As you say...the actual distance moved would need changing if the skeleton was a smaller unit. This adjusts their actual movement rate on the battlefield ( good ) for those short-legged units!

The main worry I had was the eventual size of the animation pack when we are done.... I reckon I need a unique set for Dwarves, one for Orcs and some odd-balls...which I hope to modify Elephant skeletons to get. The mounts have far fewer animations, and this is a BIG time saver!

Some of the animas I want, though, are simple re-scales with the bones in odentical proportion. Vercingetorix's tool allowed a 'global re-scale' of hte skeleton, which used th estandard animations with a scaled up model. Does this possibility still exist? For a 'large human' such as the Ushabti or Bone Giant, Chaos Demons and Rat Ogre, I could use such a facility. It would avoid the extra animations in the pack, and save a whole lot of duplicate animations being packed. Just a thought

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Bwian

can't blame a guy for trying

If the animations work like they did in RTW, then it should just be a question of adjusting the root bone start positions, and applying the samechange in translation on the Z axis to set it on the ground. The rest of hte movements are relative to this, so the actual movements could be preserved. As you say...the actual distance moved would need changing if the skeleton was a smaller unit. This adjusts their actual movement rate on the battlefield ( good ) for those short-legged units!

The main worry I had was the eventual size of the animation pack when we are done.... I reckon I need a unique set for Dwarves, one for Orcs and some odd-balls...which I hope to modify Elephant skeletons to get. The mounts have far fewer animations, and this is a BIG time saver!

Some of the animas I want, though, are simple re-scales with the bones in odentical proportion. Vercingetorix's tool allowed a 'global re-scale' of hte skeleton, which used th estandard animations with a scaled up model. Does this possibility still exist? For a 'large human' such as the Ushabti or Bone Giant, Chaos Demons and Rat Ogre, I could use such a facility. It would avoid the extra animations in the pack, and save a whole lot of duplicate animations being packed. Just a thought

Seeing we are now rebuilding the idx and dat files (Yayyy!!!!) to be used there is a beaut little facility available in descr_skeleton.txt (which is used as the basis for the building), SCALE!!!! . This means that if you want to use the fs_horse animations for a small pony, you can copy the horse animations, apply a scale and rename it bw_small_pony or whatever. This has the effect (I'm assuming but it is logical) that the skeleton and all it's height above ground and movement would be scaled as well. If you have a look at fs_horse it has a scale of 1.12 or something similar applied in the descr_skeleton.txt. So if you're mainly concerned with just rescaled skeletons, the gift from Caliban of the raw anim files is really great because now we have the facility to bring scale into the engine with just editing the descr_skeleton.txt. Just be aware that if the engine finds a rescaled skeleton it has to load all the animations again so memory might be an issue if you use lots of rescaled skeletons. Moderation and planning ahead should make this a non-issue though.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Bwian]

Flags are out, and people are cheering in the streets! ... well I am...and the neighbours are giving me funny looks!

The scale facility will allow us to make a couple of 'giant' skeletons, and a couple of 'large' skeletons for use with a quite a few extra units. A giant version of the mace wielder would do for Bone Giants, large Chaos Demons and possibly a few others. An intermediate version would do for Ushabti, Ogres, Rat Ogres etc. A single handed swordsman and a 2 handed axeman variant would be required.

Then, of course, there is the need for Dwarves and Orcs, and the work is done. Goblins could be done by re-scaling the Orc version.

Lots of work, but worth it!

I am assuming teh memory issue would only be a problem if we had EVERY extra animation turn up in a battle, so we would have to make sure we are thinking of the impact of the work and not make a unique skeleton for every single unit!

[alpaca]

Congratulations guys, another breakthough

[SigniferOne]

A lot more than just scale becomes easy and accessible once descr_skeleton.txt is moddable -- things like, battle combos, properly synching up how units react to one another (e.g. when precisely a unit raises his shield to block). In short, it's pure goodness.

[Caliban]

Hi Caliban
I grabbed a demo of max 7 from an old 3d mag I had lying around, got the Service Pack 1 update and loaded your plugin. I got the exact same message everybody else was getting ie incompatible version. The only thing I can think of was maybe it was written for 7.5 or Viz or relies on another plugin. I'll leave it on until the trial runs out in case anybody comes up with a solution. In the meantime I'll play with other formats, import, export, etc. We can't use Verc's exporter because it only exports the truncated anim files as found in the pack.dat file. Incidentally does your process/exporter work off bones or point helpers?

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

I have only tested the plugin in full versions of 3dsmax 7 and 8. This might be the problem, I would have thought that the demo would allow you to load plugins however.

The CA .CAS exporter will export the full .cas file without being truncated. I'm pretty sure its truncated when the game builds the pack files. So if anyone can get it to work, it should be ok.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi Caliban

I have only tested the plugin in full versions of 3dsmax 7 and 8. This might be the problem, I would have thought that the demo would allow you to load plugins however.

The CA .CAS exporter will export the full .cas file without being truncated. I'm pretty sure its truncated when the game builds the pack files. So if anyone can get it to work, it should be ok.

I've been able to load the ms3d and fbx plugins and they seem to work ok in the demo version. Only way to tell is to set up a quarantined machine with only OS, 3ds Max and the plugin loaded and see if it works, probably too drastic for curiosity's sake though

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Casuir]

The plugin works ok for me with max 8, usually crashs on export because I cant figure out what options to select

@Caliban, does the weapon upgrade system work for values greater than 1, if I add a second level in the edb and name the group primaryactive2 will it be displayed ingame?

[SigniferOne]

In other news, Grumpy have you had any results playing around with officers in a unit? Also, is there a word on the bounding spheres and their usefulness? The initial test somebody was doing here was promising...

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi S1

In other news, Grumpy have you had any results playing around with officers in a unit? Also, is there a word on the bounding spheres and their usefulness? The initial test somebody was doing here was promising...

I haven't personally played with officers yet but somebody did post here that it was possible. I understand there is an entry you have to make to the cfg file to show officers. Also beware of using officers without the correct edu entry - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=97600 .

Now the one thing I'm not sure of is where the link between General models and mesh figures is held. It doesn't seem to be in edu but captains are.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Ahh good to hear someone has it working :)
If you are exporting a model and getting a crash, run the STL check modifier over it and make sure all vertices are welded that need to be welded. A general small weld threshold can fix some export issues.

Just a note on .CAS animations. You will see in descr_skeleton.txt that every animation has a default anim. This should be 4-5 frames of static animation with the model in its un-deformed pose (arms out our however it was rigged). All animations must have a minimum of 5 frames (I think its 4 but 5 is safe). Even if your idle is static, make sure there are atleast 5 frames in the anim. All animations must have a frame 0 that is identical to the default anim. So every animation must have the first frame (frame 0) as the base-pose. When you export you will see the option to use frame 0 as the default.

The plugin works ok for me with max 8, usually crashs on export because I cant figure out what options to select

@Caliban, does the weapon upgrade system work for values greater than 1, if I add a second level in the edb and name the group primaryactive2 will it be displayed ingame?

I couldn't tell you about the weapon upgrade system, you can try it or if you really want I could hunt around and try and find out.

[Re Berengario I]

Now the one thing I'm not sure of is where the link between General models and mesh figures is held. It doesn't seem to be in edu but captains are.

Both strat and battle general models are defined in descr_character.txt.

There you can have different "levels" and models for the strat map, but not for the battles.

type			named character
(...)
faction			venice
dictionary		15
strat_model		southern_general
battle_model	Northern_General
battle_equip	gladius, chainmail shirt helmet and rectangular shield

The weapon upgrade system is a bit of a mess, you can't have higher upgrades than 1 and the missile weapons bonus displays as melee weapon bonus in the unit display window .

[Casuir]

Cheers Caliban, did a few quick tests and it does look to be limited to one level of bonus for melee weapons only. Dunno if it would have been a weld issue with the exporter, it was just a strat map model I was trying to export, most likely I had something selected in the options dialogue that shouldnt have been. I'll try that when I have time, lot of other stuff on my plate atm.

[GrumpyOldMan]

HI RB

Both strat and battle general models are defined in descr_character.txt.

There you can have different "levels" and models for the strat map, but not for the battles.

type			named character
(...)
faction			venice
dictionary		15
strat_model		southern_general
battle_model	Northern_General
battle_equip	gladius, chainmail shirt helmet and rectangular shield

The weapon upgrade system is a bit of a mess, you can't have higher upgrades than 1 and the missile weapons bonus displays as melee weapon bonus in the unit display window .

Thanks for this, now I know where I can link new generals to factions.

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

[Caliban]

Cheers Caliban, did a few quick tests and it does look to be limited to one level of bonus for melee weapons only. Dunno if it would have been a weld issue with the exporter, it was just a strat map model I was trying to export, most likely I had something selected in the options dialogue that shouldnt have been. I'll try that when I have time, lot of other stuff on my plate atm.

Yeah I have had export crashes before, so if you want to give me a screenshot of the options you have selected, I can advise what options to use. If it does crash on export, it's normally something with the model like unwelded verts or doubled polygon faces on top of each other. The CAS exporter can be quite picky even though it looks fine in 3dsmax. I would suggest deleting duplicate faces and rebuilding the polygon if there is any. weld all verts that are on top of each other. Convert to mesh (instead of polygon) and reset x-forms and then collapse and retry an export.

Let me know if you need help when you get around to it.

Caliban

[Casuir]

I managed to get the model exported using these options:

This is what I got ingame:

The actual mesh itself is resized and scaled geometry from city models that come with the game, unless the importer is doing something with the vertices they should be the same as the original model. Probably the case seeing as the script won't reimport its own exports sometimes, even though they work fine ingame.

[zxiang1983]

Hi, all.
I would like to discuss something about the bounding sphere values again.

I have dealt with various weapons and units but now I have a doubt. Does the "bounding sphere values" in the model comment really have any effect?

Once I doubled the length of a pike and then doubled all values of bounding sphere in model comment but I got no change in game. The engine still consider the pike as its original length. I also tried to change only some of the values and the result is the same.

Once I merged a swordsman and a pike, using swordsmen's bounding sphere values. And it worked fine in game! The engine recognizes the pike and the pike has its correct length, definitely not the length of a sword.

And once I made a dismounted knight templar, just deleting the lances, using knights templar's bounding sphere values. And again it's fine in game. He fought as a real sword&shield unit. The figure and an opponent never start fighting while separated.

Due to my observations(really lots of observations), changing the bounding sphere values in model comment has merely any effect in game(might be no effect at all I guess). And it turns out to be clearer and clearer that the weapon itself carries its bounding sphere value with it. When we changed the appearance of the weapon we didn't change the bounding sphere value. So engine won't recognize the changed length. When we merge the weapon with a figure the bounding sphere value comes with the weapon. So the engine will no doubt recognize the new weapon. It explains everything quite well.

The question is, is it possible for us to get access to the bounding sphere value of a certain weapon?

And I remembered that someone said he was going to make a real new weapon. What is the result in game?


Thanks for reading .

[Ashdnazg]

I wonder if it has to do something with the spacing between the soldiers in a unit, I couldn't make it lower than a certain value (Although I tried it with only one unit).
Perhaps try to make r smaller, and then make the tight formation tighter (can't test it myself since I don't have m2tw)

[KnightErrant]

@zxiang1983 and ashdnazg
Yeah, I'm still not sure what the bounding sphere data does. I thought
I remembered within the past couple of weeks Caliban mentioning something
about it being used for projectiles but I went back a couple of thread logs
in this thread and could not find it. Some people have reported that changing
the radius affected the weapons reach but I can't confirm that because I
haven't done real definitive tests. It would be nice to get a real answer on
this.

[GubZol]

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

Hi All...

Update on the latest on my front...

I have finally begun my noobie tutorial for MESH conversion to be modified for use in MilkShape (hopefully shouldn't take too long)...

I will also be doing a tut on CAS conversion to bring RTW CAS's into MilkShape to eventually be used in M2TW.

Just FYI...

Keep up the good work on animations!!!

AT

[ole-warhammer]

Sorry for posting in this forum, but do any one know how or someone who has maked a CAS reader for Rome: Total war for Wings 3d? NOT 3ds Max!!

Would be great help!