A start on the .MESH file format

[Suraknar]

hrm...

This looks like Vertex Shading, Shininess and refraction in relation to weather lighting and environment, so it is information for the engine's rendering instructions.

Just a thought, are these mystery values the same accross the board for all units?

If they are then maybe the Converter could just add(insert) this information to the final .mesh file upon export?

EDIT: NVM, I posted this after reading page 5 of the thread, did not notice there was Page 6, which I am reading now :P

[KnightErrant]

Yes, the format seems to be the same for all units.
The aztec variants that Casuir found had float triple
streams for the mystery data but those units aren't
used in-game (don't appear in the EDU) so were they
mistakes, early prototypes with a different format, etc. ?

Did a quick google on normal map tutorials and there
are a few so maybe I should just read up for a few evenings
until I can catch up.

[Re Berengario I]

For what you are interested in a normal map it's just another texture because most of the 3d programs know how to handle it. It's not geometry for them.

From the Caliban post I understood that the mystery block values are the tangent and biNormal (bitangent) vectors of the model to support normal mappin in per pixel lighting through shaders.

[Re Berengario I]

Ok, because I need to be forgiven for the last cryptic post this is a good and simple tutorial about the argument:

http://www.3dkingdoms.com/tutorial.htm

and this for tangent space normal mapping

http://www.3dkingdoms.com/weekly/weekly.php?a=37

[KnightErrant]

Well when GrumpyOldMan comes online he'll understand this
so I guess I shouldn't be too worried about my ignorance.
What I would like is an assurance of is this data computable
from the vertex vectors, weights, and uv coords so that when
we pull all of that out of a mesh and put it into the .ms3d
format (which wants the vertex normals) can we go back the
other way and put it all back into the mesh format and compute
all the required mystery data. (I realize we may be "talking past each other"
on this question, I see this problem from data in a file format and you
guys who actually make models may be seeing this as something
you apply in a given application.)

Edit: You're too fast, I didn't even get a chance to see that.
I'm going off to study this stuff and then I'll understand it better.
Many thanks for being patient with me.

2nd Edit: Yes, that's the tutorial I found. Reading it now.

3rd Edit: THANK YOU! This has math in it. Now I'll understand what we've
been talking about.

[Re Berengario I]

I don't possess deep knowledge on normal mapping as I usually let the 3d application handle it but in this case they use directly a shader so those values (if I'm not completely wrong) are a 3x3 matrix for each mesh vertex.

(From the second link above:)
To use tangent space normal mapping, we need to send the tangent and bitangent vectors to the vertex shader. Then we can create a 3x3 rotation matrix from them that can be used to rotate vectors such as the light vector and half-angle vector into tangent space.
Now we can dot these vectors with a normal from our tangent space normal map, using the same pixel shader as with object space normal mapping.

From Caliban's post:

To get more info about what tangent and binormal is, they should look up tangent space normal mapping as that's what we're using. Mesh needs to contain valid tangent space (normal, tangent & binormal).

[KnightErrant]

Exactly! from the same article

void ComputeTangentBasis(
      const Vec3& P1, const Vec3& P2, const Vec3& P3, 
      const Vec2& UV1, const Vec2& UV2, const Vec2& UV3,
      Vec3 &tangent, Vec3 &bitangent )
{
   Vec3 Edge1 = P2 - P1;
   Vec3 Edge2 = P3 - P1;
   Vec2 Edge1uv = UV2 - UV1;
   Vec2 Edge2uv = UV3 - UV1;

   float cp = Edge1uv.y * Edge2uv.x - Edge1uv.x * Edge2uv.y;

   if ( cp != 0.0f ) {
      float mul = 1.0f / cp;
      tangent   = (Edge1 * -Edge2uv.y + Edge2 * Edge1uv.y) * mul;
      bitangent = (Edge1 * -Edge2uv.x + Edge2 * Edge1uv.x) * mul;

      tangent.Normalize();
      bitangent.Normalize();
   }
}

This is exactly the education I was looking for. Thank you very much
Re Berengario I. I'm am deeply in your debt.

[Suraknar]

KE,

Just as a small test here,

when you compare feudal_knightslod0 and feudal_knights_lod1, is the mystery bytes information the same?

[KnightErrant]

No, in all the "normal units" I've looked (a very small subset unfortunately)
the lod1, lod2, and lod3 only have one mystery block, set off with a
granny int of 3 0 0 0 which, according to Caliban's info, means normal
info only, no tangent or binormal. Is that significant?

Edit: Sorry, if you're asking if the first mystery block is the same for
each lod I don't know. I can find out but I have to run some examples.