A start on the .MESH file format

[FedeITA]

hi i have a problem with chivalry or other knights that use helmets in the attachments texture: i have all helmets assigned correctly in milkshape but when i reconvert the ms3d file to mesh it change and reassign automatically to figure.
can someone help me?
Im using milkshape 1.8.1, im merging models only with grumpy mesheditor.
thx for the help
here an ingame screen:

[dragases1453]

Hi grumpyoldman i modified a new unit but when i try it in game it seems i assigned badly the vertex to the bones...but in milkshape seems everything ok...can i send you the unit or could you tell me how to fix it?

[Bwian]

Would really help if you posted a picture of how the model has gone wrong in game. If you just messed up a vertex, it will be easy to spot.

You might also have a duplicate vertex that isn't assigned even though it looks like it is ...

or the thing may have screwed up for another reason entirely!

I have had models go completely haywire somewhere in the process, and just had to re-import the 3DS files into MS3D and start again. Not sure why...but every once in a while I do/don;t do something essential and it screws up. I know the symptoms...so I just start over.

[GrumpyOldMan]

Hi

Hi grumpyoldman i modified a new unit but when i try it in game it seems i assigned badly the vertex to the bones...but in milkshape seems everything ok...can i send you the unit or could you tell me how to fix it?

I had a look but you sent the mesh file so I can't tell what you did to the ms3d file. Check all the model and group comments and see if anything pops up when you select unattached vertices. Make sure all groups have a material assigned.

GrumpyOldMan

[=Omni=]

I've also noticed a little problem with weighting - for example when my pikemen move, some parts of the model pop through the others parts. So I've repaired the weigthing in Milkhshape, checked the animation (using KE's tools) - everything seemed fine. I've exported it back to MTW and the bug is still present :(

[dragases1453]

Thanks man...i finally worked it out...and now it works properly...thanks anyway!

[r-marci]

Hello!

Sorry, but my English isn't good.

I'm a beginner in modding as you can see in the following text.

I have some problemes with mesh format.
I know there isn't any converter to make a MAX-readable (I've Studio Max 7) file from mesh, as I haven't found any plugin or script to import. So I can use only the mesh-to-ms3d converter and an other application (3D Object Converter) to convert ms3d to obj.
But when I imported the obj file to the MAX, I didn't found the "bones" to animate the modell unlike the body.
Why is it?
Doesn't the mesh format contain "bones"?

[KnightErrant]

Hi r-marci,

Actually, the .mesh file doesn't contain bones, only bone strings, text
names for the bones. The bones (or joints) are in the animation files.
The way GrumpyOldMan's converter (and mine) deal with this is we
read an extra file containing the standard skeleton for human models
(and other files for mounts or siege engines). This rigs the skeleton in
Milkshape. I have seen some people report that the fbx export from
Milkshape makes a binary file (in fbx format) that 3dsmax can read and
it has the bones in it, although there are some display problems.

I haven't kept up with this discussion but it might be something you
can try. You can export fbx from 3dsmax and then use Milkshape
to read it. Then use GrumpyOldMan's converter to finally go back to
a mesh file.

Best of luck ,

KE

[r-marci]

Hi r-marci,

Actually, the .mesh file doesn't contain bones, only bone strings, text
names for the bones. The bones (or joints) are in the animation files.
The way GrumpyOldMan's converter (and mine) deal with this is we
read an extra file containing the standard skeleton for human models
(and other files for mounts or siege engines). This rigs the skeleton in
Milkshape. I have seen some people report that the fbx export from
Milkshape makes a binary file (in fbx format) that 3dsmax can read and
it has the bones in it, although there are some display problems.

I haven't kept up with this discussion but it might be something you
can try. You can export fbx from 3dsmax and then use Milkshape
to read it. Then use GrumpyOldMan's converter to finally go back to
a mesh file.

Best of luck ,

KE

Thanks!

But my problem with the Milkshape is that I haven't got it! And as I understand I need Milkshape to work with skeletons of M2TW. This causes that I use the 3D Object Converter (It can use and convert file in many format like obj, ms3d, 3ds etc.).

Where can I find your converter?

[KnightErrant]

Hi r-marci,

If you are going to work on mostly human units, then you should
have GrumpyOldMan's converter, because it has a merge facility
for switching weapons and shields, the most common mod for units.
I THINK his latest version is here:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1276

If you want to do mounts and siege engines then you need
my meshconverter, version 1.3:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1377

The link to Milkshape is:

http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ms3d/index.html

Milkshape is not free: you get a 30 day trial then you need to register
it for 25$. Not a bad price compared to 3dsmax.

Hope this is useful to your modeling efforts ,

KE

[r-marci]

What do you think about that I import the body to 3d Studio Max (mesh->ms3d->obj) or make a new body and add the skeleton of a unit from the RTW (That's imported with Verc's Cas Importer/Exporter). Because I can export the modificated/new body with the Cas Importer/Exporter and there's a Cas to M2TW files converter (which hasn't been tried yet ).

[KnightErrant]

@r-marci,

Sorry, you went outside my area of knowledge. I know
GrumpyOldMan made a cas converter for RTW units but
I don't know anything about them. The bones are the
only show stopper I can think of. RTW units have "cloak
bones" so they need animations that work with those.
M2TW units have a slightly different skeleton so the animations
are different. GrumpyOldMan can give you a definative answer.

[Bwian]

r-marci ... I am afraid there is no effective way to work with Max right now...and I feel for you here. MS3D is nowhere near as good as Max when it comes to animation work.

Unfortunately, the CAS import/export script for max does not actually import a skeleton correctly, nor does it import animations properly. They work within it's own confines... but do not translate across to M2TW.

If you are trying to work in Max without milkshape, you will hit a few snags with what you are trying to do.

1) The skeletons in RTW are not the same as M2TW. The M2TW have clavicle bone, and no cloaks.

2) There is no guarantee that you will be able to convert the CAS file to mesh

3) There is no way to do animations this way. The only tool we have that allows us to import CAS animation files for M2TW to Max was the one released by CA .. and it has never worked for anyone as far as I know.

Not saying it can't be done ... but ther eare some real barriers to making this work

[r-marci]

So you would like to say to me that the better way is I will use Milkshape, wouldn't you?

[Bwian]

Trust me ... I wish it were otherwise ... but that is the way it is.

You may be able to find a workaround to get your stuff into Max, but I can't see any way you are going to be able to work properly that way. There is much that I would rather do in Max, but I had to go and get myself a copy of MS3D and am trying to learn more about it. I don;t model in it ... but rather use it as a converter to make models in a format that the tools we have need.

Unless someone wants to go and re-create all the stuff KnightErrant and Grumpy Old Man have done for Max, then we are stuck with what we have.

[r-marci]

Thanks for all of your answers!

I've loaded the trial version of Milkshape down!

Can you tell me about the animation system of M2TW? I would like to know what I have to do in Milkshape (after I made a new body and added skeleton to it) to have a new unit, which do everything well in the game.

Sorry to have lots of questions but the forums looks like the chaos to me in English, and there isn't any tutorial.

[Bwian]

As a start point, download GrumpyOldMan's MESH convertion tool. Take a stock model, and convert it into MS3D format. Then you canopen it in MS3D and you will see the bones and the mesh part of the model.

You can export the model as 3DS and get that into MAx for modelling, and then re-import the file as a 3DS again to Milkshape when you are done. I don't model in MS3D either...

Depending on whether you want to make the thing fit a stock skeleton, or if you want to make a skeleton that is not human in shape or proportion determines where you go next.

I am not going to be around for the next few days, but if you post back, I will pick up any questions on how you go on from there.

In terms of converting stuff and etting it working in game, I have used ALL the tools, and got stuff to work through the development stage ( thats when I spend half my time messing with models, and the other half pestering the tool-makers! ) and know pretty much exactly what to do to get these things woking well!

[KnightErrant]

Hi R-marci,

Glad to have another modeller enter the ring. I
can answer questions related to the utilities but
since I'm not a modeller myself I can't answer
Milshape questions (other than the most basic).

If you work with the Milkshape format and the
utilities and have need of other capabilities, please
post them here and I can see if I can provide what
you need.

Welcome and happy modelling!

KE

[r-marci]

Hi R-marci,

Glad to have another modeller enter the ring. I
can answer questions related to the utilities but
since I'm not a modeller myself I can't answer
Milshape questions (other than the most basic).

If you work with the Milkshape format and the
utilities and have need of other capabilities, please
post them here and I can see if I can provide what
you need.

Welcome and happy modelling!

KE

Thank you very much!

What do you think which is better? Shall I modificate the original models of M2TW or should I make total new bodies for the mod?

[Herkus]

Thank you very much!

What do you think which is better? Shall I modificate the original models of M2TW or should I make total new bodies for the mod?

Well it depends on units which you are going to make. Modifying original models will probably help you to know the whole implementation process faster and tackle early errors.

[Bwian]

Personally, I just looked at a few models in MS3D, and then tried to put my own mesh in game. You will need to get to grips with the whole process ..start to finish, including rigging the mesh for animations at some point, so I did it from the start.

If you were working with RTW before, and are comfortable with that process, dive in at the deep end. We will make sure you don't drown

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy,

Grumpy, long time no talk to you...

I have the week off and so I am diving back into model modification.

I am bringing in a model from RTW and trying to bring it into M2TW. I have solved all my headaches except vertex bone assignments.

I have looked over the whole model, everything is OK except when I SelAssigned bone_pelvis and the whole Body_400 lights up. I need to isolate this to only the pelvic vertices. How do I isolate the bone_pelvis to the vertices located in the pelvic region of the mesh figure.

I know that I am missing something very simple here.

BTW, How are things with you???!!!!

AT

[GubZol]

Hello.
Hungarian skiner am. Apology, but my knowledge of English not the best one.
I model small one, and would be some question of mine.
I can ring changes on the models, but I should do a nose protector to a helmet, and I would ask for a little help. If somebody would be able to relate it, or would be able to help, I would say thanks to it for it!
The nose protector would be needed for a helmet like that, than the longbowmen is
I say thank you for your help!

[r-marci]

Hello.
Hungarian skiner am. Apology, but my knowledge of English not the best one.
I model small one, and would be some question of mine.
I can ring changes on the models, but I should do a nose protector to a helmet, and I would ask for a little help. If somebody would be able to relate it, or would be able to help, I would say thanks to it for it!
The nose protector would be needed for a helmet like that, than the longbowmen is
I say thank you for your help!

Hello GubZol!
Have you been given my private message in TW Online?

Csak azért kérdezem angolul, mert itt így stílusosabb!

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Grumpy...

I got it figured out. This is what I had to do.

I found out in order to free up the vertices from the bone_pelvis, I had to clear it (using the "Clear" button under the joints tab, since the entire figure body "Body_400" (not including the helmet, weapons etc.) was in one group.

I also went through all the joints on a working model and selected each one that would be in relation to it (seeing which vertices belonged to each joint) and took a screen shot of each one. This helped me later as I assigned the vertices to the correct bones.

I went back through all the vertices associated with Body_400 and reassigned them as they should be. When I brought them into the game they were fixed.

@ Gubzol
Forgive me, but I had a hard time following your post. But let me take a shot at this...

I think that you are wanted to add a nose protector to a helmet on a longbowmen model.

If this is what you want to do. Add your nose protector in the model and then add it to the same bone type under the Joints Tab in MilkShape. I assume it would be bone_head, as most of the helmets are assigned under the bone_head.

In addition, before you do the action noted above..., it doesn't hurt to add the nose guard to the helmet group. In order to do this, add your nose piece to the helmet (just move it into place), select the nose guard and the helmet and then press the ReGroup button under the Groups tab in MilkShape. It is not necessary to do this particular section, but it does clean things up a bit.

I do hope the helps.

AT

[GubZol]

Thanks for the help, but I have another question.
My question is: how could I make a nose protector or how could I "steal" it from a model?

[Bwian]

taking it from another model is actually just as hard as making it from scratch in MS3D. You would need to copy the part from a model that has the bit you want, paste it onto the new model and merge it with the helmet. Then you need to assigne the vertices to the 'head' bone so it will move with the helmet. Finally, you would need to re-map the UV co-ordinates so they picked up the right bit of texture from the texture file for the longbowman. Otherwise, your part would not display correctly.

I would suggest you start with a download of hte trial version of MS3D and read a few tutorials on the basics of modelling. Things shoul start to get a bit clearer that way.

[Andromachus Theodoulos]

@Gubzol

Very long here...

That is actually not hard at all (just involved). Once you go through it once successfully, you should become a pro at it. I do it all the time, "kit-bashing" models together. I am currently working on a major bashed model that is essentially a fictional Austrian Napoleonic musketeer bashed with pieces from over five different models... (took me a day to put together and get working...)

Now what this is going to require is some exploration, patience and learning on your part. I had some very nice people here (GrumpyOldMan and KE) help me out to get me started, but I had to do a lot of stuff on my own, until I messed up some things major and Grumpy had to fix it for me. It took me awhile to get it through my thick head what I needed to do.

What you need to do is make sure you have the MilkShape program (at least this is what I use because I cannot afford 3dsmax...) You also need Grumpy's mesh converter/merger. If you do not already have these let me know and I can show where to get them, or some else can too.

Follow the instructions on Grumpy's converter to convert one of your meshes from the game... To get the nose piece I think some of the eastern European units have these...

MAKE SURE YOU COPY YOUR MESHES TO A SAFE PLACE SO YOU DO NOT OVERWRITE ANYTHING!!

Obtaining your "nose-piece" from an existing M2TW mesh
After this you should be able to bring your converted ms3d into MilkShape and view it. This is what I do. I go through and delete everything except for the group that has the piece I want. The group in this case would be the helmet. Now go under your Model tab, use the Select button and do this by vertex or face. You will see once you do this what a vertex or face is. Begin to delete portions of the helmet until all you have left is the nose piece. save this as nose_piece_01 or something you can recognize it.

It also helps to go under the Groups tab and select your nose piece and ReName it.

Save your file and now on to the next step...

Merging your nose piece onto a longbowman helmet
Now this requires you to have converted the longbowman mesh for your merge.

Follow Grumpy's instructions on Merging and your will want to merge the nose piece into all the "lod" models of the longbowmen. This could be 3 or 4 "lod" you will need to merge the nose piece on to (longbowman_lod0, lod1, lod2, etc...)... by the way these will be located in the en_peasant_padded folder.

You will have to save your newly merged file under a new file name as you cannot overwrite your existing file.

Adding the nose piece to the longbowmen model in MilkShape
Now open up your newly merged file in MilkShape. Most likely your nose_piece is floating around in space some where. Move it towards your helmet and try to match up some of your vertices on both models. Once this is done, your will now need to load your texture under the Materials tab. You will need to investigate what texture this is. Most likely the helmet is under the attachments portion of the Materials. Look at the battle_models.modeldb to find out which texture this is. The attachment texture can be found under the attachmentsets folder in the unit_models folder...

The following may be done in multiple ways, I have done in two different ways, both of which have worked. It will explain the "cleanest".

Go to Groups tab, select the helmet and the nose piece, then select ReGroup. Then, go to the Materials tab, and select attachments, and then assign (all these buttons your should find under their corresponding tabs).

Go to Joints, with helmet still selects and assign it to the bone_head.

Open up the Texture Coordinate Window found under the Window tab in MilkShape. If your new helmet is still selected you should see a version of it appear with the nose piece off in space and both look as if they have been squashed into 2D. Go to the right side and remap your new helmet with the right or left, as most of the helmets in M2TW. Now move your helmet over its corresponding texture. YOU MAY NOT HAVE TO DO THIS. it may already show up on it proper texture region.

For the nose-piece, this is what I would suggest. Select the vertices (IN THE TEXTURE COORDINATE WINDOW) and just move them up over your helmet texture. This way they will have the proper metal texture. Again, there are many ways to do this. Your could also rescale the 2D in the Texture Coordinate window and just move it over a metal piece. Its not the best, but in game they will still have metal helmets.

Everything should be ready to go. (remember your will have to do this for every lod {0,1,2, and 3}.

Another note here. Make a new helmet already prepared as above and then merge it into each model lod. This way you don't have to repeat these endless steps for each lod. Your helmet would be prepared in such a way to be merged into multiple models.

Convert your ms3d with new helmet and convert back to mesh
... and load it into the game.

Now Gubzol, I have left some more simpler parts out and this is by no means a complete tutorial, but might as well be. If your run into problems just post and I or someone else can help you. And remember, be patient, but once you grasp the fundamentals of this, you will take off. (Also sorry for not posting images... we may have to do this...)

If you get "stiff man syndrome" in your model it will be most likely that your vertices are not assigned to the right bone, make sure for this helmet it is bone_head.

Gubzol, if you are able to get through this.. I know you are struggling with english, my hat is off to you.

Again, I know I have probably left some parts out, (as I was in a hurry), but please post if you do not understand something.

AT

Edit:
Correction on the location of the helmets, they are on the en_peasant_padded not on the attachments texture... sorry about that.

Really it doesn't matter. Most of the textures have some kind of metal texture in it. You can rescale your UV coord over any of these to get the desired effect you want.

By the way, I am no god!!! Just an obessed Total War freak who not only loves the games, but also loves modifying them...

[GubZol]

I say thank you for it nicely Andromachus Theodolus!!!
You are the bigest one! Finally somebody, who wants to help really!!! You are wery greatfull!!
You are a god!!!! Thank you very much!!!!

[KnightErrant]

Wow, AT that was a great post! You have
really got the modelling through Milkshape down.
Hat's off!