destroying papal state

[Armenia_Byzantium]

Im playing a byzantine campaign, now im just wondering what will happen to me if i destroy the papal state, what i mean is what will the euro factions stance will be.

[Foz]

If it were me, I'd do it and find out! I mean, it's not every day you get a chance to beat down the pope and live to tell the tale. Just have a savegame standing by in case you need to fall back on it, things could get ugly. I wouldn't expect them to though: the normal troubles catholics get are due mostly to the pope meter and excommunication. As you're not involved in all that as Byzantium, I'd expect it to be more or less like beating on any other country. You may anger his allies, but then again the catholic AI factions seem not to bother allying with the pope a lot of the time (though you'd think they should be) so even that seems like it shouldn't be very troubling.

[Armenia_Byzantium]

Yeah I'd love to do it, but who will i sell jarusalem and antioch when there will no crusade for it

Nah i will do it eventually, I would like to see what happens next, I expect that there will divisions between the catholic factions.

its like saying the mice will play when the cats are away

[sapi]

You cannot destroy the papal states, though if you kill one pope per turn, you can eliminate the entire college of cardinals and so nullify their effects on you.

[Armenia_Byzantium]

How can you not eliminate the papal state, its basically a buch of settlements in italy, on my current campaign they consist of one settlement in italy.

[sapi]

It's hardcoded into the game to survive (so that inquisitors and the like don't suddenly dissapear when you take rome; that would make things far too easy as a catholic)

[Armenia_Byzantium]

Well I never really tried it, so its news to me.

Anyways there is a way around it, my aim is to drive divisions between catholic nations that is why one my targets is to at least weaken the papal state

[Lorenzo_H]

Taking over Italy is not such a bad idea, though if the Papal States own it (like they do for me) then it better be destroyed quickly and efficiently because the happiness penalty really hits home hard.

[pike master]

it shouldnt matter unless you have a lot of catholic subjects and of course the pope may call a crusade. i think the two christian religions were in a state of schism during the middle ages so byzantines shouldnt be able to be excommunicated.

[sapi]

They can't be, although attacking the papacy is like sticking a neon 'invade me' sign on you with regards to catholic neighbours

[holycow]

you might want to try eliminating all catholic factions before you take on papal, from what i've heard, the papal state will reincarnate in another catholic province, but i wonder will that happen if no catholic factions exist???and therefore papal state can't pop up somewhere else.

[diotavelli]

it shouldnt matter unless you have a lot of catholic subjects and of course the pope may call a crusade. i think the two christian religions were in a state of schism during the middle ages so byzantines shouldnt be able to be excommunicated.

This is something the game doesn't reflect very well. In fact, during this period, both Orthodox and Roman churches considered themselves 'Catholic': the Christian faith was universal (that's what Catholic means) and indivisible. Several Popes and Byzantine Emperors worked to reunite the two churches, which had been divided over doctrinal and hierarchical issues.

Things came to a head around the time M2TW starts, when two Papal legates visited Byzantium, got into a huge row and proceeded to excommunicate their hosts (something their official capacity didn't entitle them to do). The Byzantine Patriarch (who was as idiotic and stubborn as the legates) went an excommunicated them right back. And the denominations have been in Schism ever since - both still to be part of the same Catholic church but completely divided theologically, liturgically and culturally.

The point is that excommunication only operates on a personal level (whole countries don't get excommunicated, they get put under Interdict) and that the official sanctions on both sides should have lapsed with the death of the excommunicates. As a result, even during Schism, both sides could and did work toward reconciliation. This is something that the game could have reflected.

The situation could have been made far more accurate and interesting in the game by including the Byzantines on the Pope-o-meter and giving them the choice of Catholic or Orthodox church buildings. They'd start with abysmal Papal relations and excommunicate. Playing as Byzantine Emperor, you'd have the choice to 'go Catholic'.

If you did, until you managed significant conversions, this would cause huge problems with unrest but, on the other hand, your relations with the Pope would be outstanding and other factions would be in real trouble for attacking you. If you didn't, you'd face all the usual sanctions for excommunicate factions but you'd have a happier populace.

This would be accurate and would make the faction far more interesting to play and to play against. Bit late now, of course.

[Abokasee]

If you take out all the catholic factions that will dismantle pope system, because there are no preist to select into the college

[wzup]

I'm playing as the moors right now and i just issued a jihad against rome (my tolouse citadel was targeted for a crusade by the pope so its only fair)

[Ars Moriendi]

Well, I did exterminate the Papal states while playing as Byzantium. I don't remember any drop in relations or any other penalty, but that may be because I already was as low as I could get with the western states - I tend to get in trouble with their crusades around Antioch and Jerusalem, and that definitely causes a sudden drop in relations with all catholics.

I also killed the Pope during the last battle in Rome. His Holliness just reincarnated outside the walls of Rome, with a rather strong army. Can't tell what happens further, because I stopped playing at that point.

(Note : it was kind of strange to see the holly father on the battlefied, clad in full plate and leading charges all around :))

[dismal]

I also killed the Pope during the last battle in Rome. His Holliness just reincarnated outside the walls of Rome, with a rather strong army. Can't tell what happens further, because I stopped playing at that point.

I've heard mention that the pope hordes when eliminated. Was the reappearance consistent with the horde mechanic? (Star on the map, "people in flight" message, etc.)

Never seen it.

The pope was eliminated by Milan in one of my games and he came asking me for a homeland. I took Rome and gave it to him.

[diotavelli]

(Note : it was kind of strange to see the holly father on the battlefied, clad in full plate and leading charges all around :))

As I recall, there's a famous Renaissance artwork showing Pope Julius II in full armour, with the Papal tiara scuplted into his helmet (don't remember the artist, I'm afraid). He was a particularly interesting Pope from an M2TW POV, as he re-extended the Papal States (recapturing Bologna in the process) and founded the Swiss Guard. He's known to have led his troops into battle on more than one occasion.

He also commissioned Michelangelo's painting of the Sistine Chapel and laid the foundations for St Peter's Basilica, so he clearly knew how to manage popular unrest too....

[Ars Moriendi]

I've heard mention that the pope hordes when eliminated. Was the reappearance consistent with the horde mechanic? (Star on the map, "people in flight" message, etc.)

I don't recall anything like this - all I remember is my "WTF?" moment, 1-2 turns after the battle for Rome when I spotted the new pope talking a stroll around Latium...

---------

@diotavelli : Your post prompted me to do some quick reading on Julius II - it appears that he was indeed one hell of a pope (pardon my unholly expression:)

"He became known as "the warrior pope" and "il papa terribile", and worked hard to restore and preserve the Papal States and led military efforts to hold off the encroaching forces of France. When defecting cardinals threatened another schism, he called the Fifth Lateran Council, and overturned another military coup with the help of Swiss troops."

[gardibolt]

The Pope behaves a lot like a horde when he has no lands, but there's no message about a people in flight. If you killed the Pope, there's just a new message that there's a new Pope. The manual makes it quite clear that you can't eliminate him, and no one has been successful at doing so AFAIK. I expect that the game mechanics may require him to work properly, though I don't know if people have been able to mod the Pope out of the game altogether.

[zstajerski]

There is only one way top destroy the pope, take out all other christians first, and then the pope himself...
the college of cardinals will eb empty and no new pope will ever sit on that chair again...

although the papal states do not dissaper form diplomacy

[dumas]

As I recall, there's a famous Renaissance artwork showing Pope Julius II in full armour, with the Papal tiara scuplted into his helmet (don't remember the artist, I'm afraid). He was a particularly interesting Pope from an M2TW POV, as he re-extended the Papal States (recapturing Bologna in the process) and founded the Swiss Guard. He's known to have led his troops into battle on more than one occasion.

That's very interesting. Come to think of it, a pope would make a perfect general against his Catholic neighbors. Who in their right mind would want to lay a hand on him and suffer guaranteed eternal damnation? Fighting his army is already bad enough. Now, on the pope's side, it's all good. You win, great. You die, you automatically go to heaven (or so the pope would tell them). It's like a crusade, except that the enemy believes in YOUR God and know that they're fighting against him.

[alex9337]

Played a thoroughly enjoyable campaign as the English where I role-played as a "lapdog" of the Pope.

The Pope loved me throughout the game (might have had something to do with the fact that the college of cardinals usually had at least 8 Englishmen in it at any given time) and when Milan took Rome, they called a Crusade against them to retake the city.

Well, I answered his call and won the city. Then the Pope asked me to give it back to him. I believe it was because he had control over no other cities. I gladly obliged and was instantly sainted! (just kidding).

Anyway, long story short, it was a lot of fun to try playing a campaign a certain way. Once you have the knack of winning, it keeps the game fresh when you can play all the different ways that you can think of, be it lap dog to the Pope, excommunicated Catholic Crusher, what have you.

[Mega Dux Bob]

That's very interesting. Come to think of it, a pope would make a perfect general against his Catholic neighbors. Who in their right mind would want to lay a hand on him and suffer guaranteed eternal damnation? Fighting his army is already bad enough. Now, on the pope's side, it's all good. You win, great. You die, you automatically go to heaven (or so the pope would tell them). It's like a crusade, except that the enemy believes in YOUR God and know that they're fighting against him.

The Sicilians captured a Pope in one battle and ended up pretending they didn't do it and let him go.

Never tried it in MTW2 but in MTW1 I had tried it with the HRE. The pope just, came back and back and back and back,.. until I gave up. Not to mention he was almost impossible to kill in battle. Jump on him with two or three units of knights and the pope would wiggle free. It must be that hat, he discards it like some lizards do their tails and escapes.

[dumas]

Jump on him with two or three units of knights and the pope would wiggle free. It must be that hat, he discards it like some lizards do their tails and escapes.

Are you sure that was the pope? It could have been this other guy with a pointy hat who's known to have a few tricks up his sleeves... I think his name is Gaandulf or something like that. Or maybe it's the guy with a red hat who's known to command a very fast charriot, so fast in fact that some swear it flies. Only if I could remember his name...

[Gratian]

Well, i took Rome in my Russian campaign (they are Orthodoxes too), thus depriving Papal States of their last land - and nothing happened... well, except that Denmark declared war some five turns after... but I'm not sure it happened because of this take-over.
By the way I had to kill two or three (cannot recall precisely) Popes prior to taking Rome - also never had seen "relation worsened" with any other European state (except Papal States, of course). Also after capture of Constantinopol just Sicily and Milan declared war agaist me - so it wasn't such nightmare as i thought (after reading some posts of players who managed to do the same). Campaign setting were VH/vh btw...

[Redtroll]

Playing the Byzantine I had taken Naples and Sicily, and my western armies armies were busy fighting the moors in north africa when his highness the Pope came himself with sizable armies (nearly 2 full stacks) to expel me from the peninsula.

He died in front of the gate and my battered mercenary and militia soldiers broke the whole papal troops.

Too bad for the pope I had another cavalry army who sneaked from Croatia trough Rome and quickly assaulted the Holy City.
That left the newly elected Pope alone in my territories. I sent a diplomat, and being generous I gave him some lands in exchange from peace and pardon .. ok, it's only a small village in the arabian peninsula, but it worked.

Now my 10********** professional killer who was waiting near Rome just had to kill the pope and what do we have ?

A powerless papacy located in a backyard place, no more a troublemaker for the rest of the world.
Side effect = no more rebel in arabia and a new trading partner for egyptian cities

Later, I also gave the pope edessa and Baghdad, so that we could become loving neighbors ... and to have a nice buffer against timurids (no so powerful as I toughed btw, I destroyed the entire hord (including panzer elephants) in a few bridge and hill battles near the river crossing at Aleppo and it took me only a few year and less than 1500 losses. a few 10********** killers were also quite helpfull. Playing H/H

Mongols were quite harder to beat.