Are Roman AI a bit strange at 0.8?

[MaximianusBR]

I am plaiyng a campaing with Kart-Hadast at VH/H for 60 years and the roman AI looks kind of strange to me...They just taked iuvavoeta(sp?) and reunited all 2/3 of their armies there imobile...changed their capital to Arriminum and didn't give too much attention to south italy...
after a war against me they didn't gave attention to my armies and continued concentrating armies at the alps...i almost tooked all italy but decided to return the lands to them plus Alalia and give them 60000 Mnai in exchange for ceasefire, alliance and military acess(a litle gift for them to recover their power)...so after the war they get with all italy less:Capua, Taras et Rhegion...Rhegion stayed with me and Taras et Capua I gave to Epeiros to criate a buffer...
After 20 years a most strange thing happen...Epeiros attacked Rome and conquered it's lands all the way to Arretium...rome have some 3 and a half stacks starring at the alps that cold easily retake rome and the other lost regions and even conquer all the epirian lands at italy, but they just ignore it and keep on vacation at alps while their homeland are conquered...

I think it's a strange behavior from the roman AI...some thoughts about it?anyone had the same experience at their campaings?

BTW, this game rocks!!!
A lot better than Medieval 2!!!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The most likely reason is that the faction is going after rebel lands first. If they take Rhegion often they stay balanced, but factions always want to go after rebel territory first, and they are no different. We might like to see them go for some other places first, but it's not easy pushing them in certain directions (as I've found from trying to get Baktria to head to India first, without making india a pushover).

[MaximianusBR]

The most likely reason is that the faction is going after rebel lands first. If they take Rhegion often they stay balanced, but factions always want to go after rebel territory first, and they are no different. We might like to see them go for some other places first, but it's not easy pushing them in certain directions (as I've found from trying to get Baktria to head to India first, without making india a pushover).

can be it...but...They just kind of stopped after conquering ivavoeta(sp?) and acumulated troops there for 20 years...
...and, is it normal they just don't react agresively against invasion to their heart lands??(Rome,Capua, Arriminum etc.)
and, why did they changed their capital to Arretium?

[Imperator]

couldn't you put a spy in Taras or Rhegion to encourage the romans to expand there? That's what they did with Sardinia and it seems to work pretty well? Or put a spy in Sicily so they either attack by sea or go overland. Maybe even moving their standing army into Tarentine land would convince them to take an offensive (and by the way, don't you think the garrison at Taras needs to be toned down? It's pretty formidable right now, maybe more than it should be)

just a couple of suggestions...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Three problems:
1- Capital Change - Oh, how I hate that. I want to punch the guy at CA who thought it would be a good idea to let the AI change their capital with the only consideration was that it was the centerist (not a real word?) city in their empire.
AI behavior:
2- The AI always goes after rebel territories first unless they are extrememly well garrisoned (and often then too).
3- The AI will only wage war on a single front. And once dedicated to that front they will not change fronts (unless then new front is with the human player).
Take a look at the AI expansion thread. I forget who, but somebody had a campaign with a great example of this with Pontus. Ever update they gained two terrritories to the north and lost two to the south. In the end they were a Baltic State.

[Moros]

perhaps the stance towards Epiros can be made more hostile, making them go south for taras faster, then the step to rhegium will be smaller. And perhaps making the northern celtic towns stronger and rhegium a lil smaller might helps as well.

[MaximianusBR]

perhaps the stance towards Epiros can be made more hostile, making them go south for taras faster, then the step to rhegium will be smaller. And perhaps making the northern celtic towns stronger and rhegium a lil smaller might helps as well.

agreed

[Teleklos Archelaou]

More hostile than towards Rebels? It won't happen. Rebels will stay at 600 on the Roman attitude ratings. We don't want to force things to happen certain ways if we can help it though - like the tricky situation of Epeiros, Rome, and Carthage at the start of our game. Rome and Carthage as allies against Epeiros? Epeiros and Carthage had dealings too though and it wouldn't have been to crazy to see them team up against the Romans, or the Romans and Epeirotes against the Carthaginians. Garrisons and recruitment were shaken up a bit for 0.81, so let's see what AI progression looks like and if we need to we might reduce the MIC level by one in Taras or take a unit or two away or something like that. Maybe add a Roman spy there. Let's see how it does with a lot of campaigns though first in 0.81. I don't buy at all the argument that Epeiros is "rolling" the Romans all the time in 0.80. They should occassionally, but I'm not seeing Rome fall anywhere near as often as I think is hinted at here. Just my personal opinion.

[Gask]

In all of the 11 or so campaigns that I have played in .8 rome has always completely ignored Epeiros for the most part while they eventually devour roman territories in italy. While amusing it is rather silly.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We do start rome and epeiros at war with each other as they should be in 272.

[Brightblade]

Aye, TA. I guess what he´s referring to is the fact that though the Romans begin with a consular army to the north and one to the south, they never send armies south!!

[Ower]

In my campaigns they do send them south, but mostly first to Rhegio then Tharas, but if they get beaten bad at tharas they mostly lose interest and wenture north.

[Dumbass]

I've seen in a few of the ai prgression pictures that the romans go into west germany and lose their holdings in italy, thus become the holy roman empire. While it's quite cool, it's quite annoying only ever seeing the romans move into germany. A way to get rid of this problem would be to add the boii as a faction, but that wouldn't happen until EB2. Another way you could change it would be to make the mediolanium province stretch across northern italy, blocking it off from all the provinces north of it: thus the romans would have to take mediolanium before it could advance any further north, and they would start moving south for Rhegion.

[Kralizec]

Epeiros has problems with Macedon, too. They very rarely manage to take Pella- it shouldn't happen every time of course, but I've never seen them do it at all. Instead the KH usually manage to take Thessaly and Chalkis first, then Pella and steamroll the entire Balkan peninsula in about half a century.

The problem is, I guess, that Epeiros tends to expand northwards into the rebel lands. While taking Dalminion early on is sound strategy because it has mines and can train those Illyrian units, they don't spend enough time trying to take over Pella. The KH's only land route for expansion, apart from Aetolia, is through Makedonia.

[cezarip]

Epeiros has problems with Macedon, too. They very rarely manage to take Pella- it shouldn't happen every time of course, but I've never seen them do it at all. Instead the KH usually manage to take Thessaly and Chalkis first, then Pella and steamroll the entire Balkan peninsula in about half a century.

The problem is, I guess, that Epeiros tends to expand northwards into the rebel lands. While taking Dalminion early on is sound strategy because it has mines and can train those Illyrian units, they don't spend enough time trying to take over Pella. The KH's only land route for expansion, apart from Aetolia, is through Makedonia.

Not necessarily! In my last campaign as Carthage, I was trying to keep Epeiros alive as a buffer between Sicily and Romans. So I gave them about 10-15000 now and then. For about 5-7 years they fought the romans for me and even captured Capua (which they lost after other 3 tours). Behold, the next time I check the map, they have conquered the Balkans. Macedon and Greeks were reduced to one city away from the continent (Rhodos for Greeks and the island city next to Pergamon for Macedon). Their next move seemed to be Nikea but soon after Spain was mine and I stopped playing.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Epeiros will be more likely to take Pella as AI in 0.81. It's happening more often. The problem is that in 272 they were on something of an upswing - if they hadn't sent a large army with all their best generals to the Peloponnese to be totally ruined during that very year. They might be a little too strong in 0.81, but if we see that is the case on AI progression screenshots (posted by fans) then we will probably reduce the garrison in Taras (and fans can do it themselves in descr_strat.txt if they like by commenting out one or two units). But lets see how it goes first.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

In my Roman Campaign I first took Taras, then made peace with Epeiros. Soon after that the Epirotes took Pella, and the Macedons came into serious problems. After I had conquered the rebellious but wealthy area up to the Danube (and bought Mediolanum for 9000 mnai :lol:), I decided to finish Epeiros up, took the two remaining origninal provinces and made an alliance with the poor Macedons, supporting them with 5000 mnai a turn. That helped them pretty much and made it possible for them to take Athens. But they did not make any attempt to recover Pella, although the Epirotean garrison was really worthless.

[Kull]

As we were preparing the final pieces of the Patch, we spotted (and fixed) a rather nasty bug that impacted Rome. Long story short, it seems to have frozen their Camillan Era MICs at the game start levels. As a result, they wouldn't have been able to produce enough really good units to make your lives the misery they should be. But that will change soon.

[Numahr]

That is why my Avernii Gauls, invading Cisalpine Gaul, meet hords of leves and rorarii! (generally supported by a some triari). Not very difficult to deal with.

Note that an other problem, IMO, is that the AI seems to prefer Triarii over hastati and principes, at least for the Camillian era. I guess it must be very difficult to reach a balance. But I also think that, if unbalance there must be , then let it be in favor of hastati and principes, who should be a more commun sight in Roman armies than Triarii. How I wish my Gauls would meet some menly resistance from those young and impetuous Roman citizens, rather than a bunch of hastily levied peasants along with experienced, calm senior triarii...

[Ower]

in my campains Epiros takes Pella quit often. I had like 3 campains where they took Pella and Demitrias, and tryed for Theremon.

[O'ETAIPOS]

It seems to me that all AI behaviour is influenced by player's faction. When I play as Mak's Roman AI always make peace with epeiros and try to reach me through Illyria, In my current campain Epirus was thrown from Greece and they forged empire in italy taking whole Sicily and Rhegion in addition to Taras, and have just started war with Rome, who concentrates efforts on northern frontiers.

On the other hand when I tried Bactria Romans took taras quite fast and started the struggle with Karthage on sicily

[Ludens]

I also find that A.I. factions tend to ignore their natural enemy if that enemy is at war with the player. The A.I. is almost certainly programmed to consider the player their prime enemy.

[The Errant]

I agree with O'ETAIPOS. Much of the AI behaviour is influenced by the player's faction.

In my Sabyn campaign I allied with the Ptolies once the Seleukids laid siege to a couple of my cities.
When the AI Ptolies proposed the alliance I was pleased to accept, since they seemed to be on the winning side.
Boy was i wrong. Immediatly after the alliance the Ptolies went passive. First they didn't train any new stacks, like they had for most of the early game. Then they lost Tarsos, Sidon and Hierosolyma to the AS. Leaving me to fight them alone. I tried giving them back both Hierosolyma and Sidon after I conquered them from the AS but they wouldn't have them.
Next I gave them 50000 Mnai to attack the Seleukids. No reaction.
Then I took Meroe in southern Nile reagion. Immediatly I get three Ptoly stacks coming to take my newly aquired city. And suddenly they find the troops to send and retake Hierosolyma from me.

In another campaign I was playing Macedon and was allied to the Seleukids. Early in the campaign I kicked the Epirotes out of Greece. I figured with one province in Italy they wouldn't be much of a threat. I proceeded to conquer Greece and move up along the Illyrian coast all the way to northern Italy. Who do I meet? The damn Epirotes. After sending a spy to the peninsula, it looks like the Epirotes control most of it, and the Romans are reduced to two northern provinces originally controlled by the Aedui.
In the meanwhile I've gotten into war with both Pontos and the Ptolies over some cities in Turkey. Until now the Seleukids have been steadily loosing their provinces both here, and in Syria to the Ptolies. Mostly do to inaction rather then lack of cash. All of a sudden they wake up, and start churning out full stacks to fight the Ptolies and Pontos on my side.

Sometimes the AI really needs a kick in the pants, from the player in order to get anything done right.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Well, I started up a 0.8 (with the 0.802 patch) on VH/M (as suggested on the site) and I picked the Romani, simply because a) I haven't played in ages and have never played EB and b) It's nice to play a historically accurate version of the romans...without worrying about the senate, which is just sillyness).

Of course, ME being the Romans leads me to give little input on Roman AI expansion but on Epeirote (sp?), they attacked me, trying to run small raids up through my lands, starting on the 3rd turn of the campaign. Before 270bc. They're already at war with 3 or 4 other factions and they are DEAD broke...yet they are attacking a growing economic power to the north of them (I guess it's their only option). I'm just trying to fend them off with the current troops (recruiting 2 units currently)...and not spending much on military spending right now because I'm trying to dig in and establish an economy that's going to PUMP in a few turns.

Either way, that's my experience, as little as it may be. Epirote attacked me (Romani) immediately, despite their grim situation early on.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I hate the human player as prime target thing.
One time I was allied with someone, we had a mutual enemy who was killing my ally, so I took a province from the enemy, making me now border my ally. Immediately the enemy turned on me and ignored my ally. I was happy, but then my ally attacked me. They were teaming up on me even though they were still at war with eachother.

[The Errant]

Don't you just love it when the AI gangs up on you.

For. He's a jolly good fellow. For. He's a jolly good fellow. For. He's a jolly good fellow. Which nobody can abide.