Ancient ruins

[Boyar Son]

I was wondering,why, the ruins are,well,ruins. (I know sounds kinda dumb). Why hasnt anyone made sure there still the way they were. The people lived in that city, then later it becomes a ghost town ( like palmyra, correct me if I'm wrong). could anyone tell me why people would let these fine building turn to to ruin and decay?

Also, I hear from my history teacher and t.v. on the history channel, that Alexander and his men saw the great pyramids, and said they were painted (or something like that). Did the Aegyptians long ago had paint on there sculptures and pyramids?

And please dont get this thread locked because of FLAMING.

[The Errant]

From what I understand the pyramids had a separate coating of painted tiles (much like modern bathrooms or kitchens). Don't know if they were just a few universal colors or if they depicted some sort of Egyptian writing or art. Propably the latter since all the other temples in Egypt did.

Many reasons can lead to the abandonment of a city. And it's ruin from neglect. Take Antioch for example. Seleukos founded it as his capital due to it's location as the natural passage from Asia Minor towards the Babylon and Persia in the east. At it's peak it had a population between 400 000 and 600 000 depending on the source.

It's geographical location made it the primary capital in the region for WESTERN power wanting to control Syria. After the Seleukids got conquered by Rome it evolved into a major metropolis. Then towards the end of Roman rule it often backed the loosing side of the Roman Civil Wars. Ownership passed to the Byzanties who tried to restore it to it's former glory. They were partially successfull.

The region is prone to earthquakes and suffered a number of them during the roman and later byzantine period. Then it got conquered by the Muslims. The moslems are not a western faction and the cities geographical position that so favored any western power in control was of little value to them moslems. The old desert oasis of Damaskos became their Syrian capital and remains so until this day.

The crusaders tried to return the city to it's former glory but that effort too failed. What's worse the river running through the city had become choked up during the centuries until ships could no longer navigate the river up to city. Gradually it lost it's importance along with the trade so vital to keep a large city alive.

If you have a decent map of modern Turkey you might find a small settlement in the south somewhat inland from the Meditarrenian coastline named Antakya. That is the modern city of Antioch. Still there but nothing like it was before.
Many old ruins of the city have been bulldozed by the local constuction companies with little regard to preservation.

If you want to know more try Wikipedia with the search of "Antioch" or "Antakya".

[Boyar Son]

I'm pretty sure ankyra in turkey (ankara I think) is still there, or is that a ruin too? did the Galatians build it?

I don't know why some people have such disregard for there own history.

[Nabaati]

From what I understand the pyramids had a separate coating of painted tiles (much like modern bathrooms or kitchens). Don't know if they were just a few universal colors or if they depicted some sort of Egyptian writing or art. Propably the latter since all the other temples in Egypt did.

Not quite. The pyramids at giza were covered in white limestone. One of them still has some at the very top.

[Boyar Son]

I have so many questions! but everyone will just get tired of it.

pics of ruins would be good

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Yeah, the pyramids were covered in white limestone of a much great quality then the inner brownish limestone. Throughout ancient Egyptian history the pyramids of Giza were maintained and repaired because they were a symbol of the greatess of Egypt. IIRC the Ptolemais maintained them too, maybe?

That fine limestone can still be seen though. Just go to Cairo and look at some of the Muslum mosques. Just as the Pope took away parts of the Coliseum to build St. Peter's, the Muslums carted off the pyramids to build mosques.

[paullus]

You know, it is sad that a lot of really nice old ruins are bulldozed by the local people to make room for a high-rise apartment or for extra building materials for a new sheep pen (those are examples I've witnessed personally in Turkey). However, to be fair, its a process that's been going on for a long, long time. Take for example the basilica cistern in old Constantinople: 540 columns (isn't that the right number?) all taken from different bits and pieces of other Byzantine or earlier Greek buildings. So you walk around in the cistern, and most of the columns and capitals are very different.

[Kugutsu]

Well, it saves a LOT of energy and time if you dont have to mine, cut and dress your building stone. And how many peasants are interested in a bunch of old ruins? They have no value as themselves, but as a source of building materials they are very handy...

[germanpeon]

Isnt Ankara (Ancyra) the capital of modern day Turkey?

[The Errant]

You're right Ankara is the capital of Turkey.

However the city I'm referring to is the Seleucid capital of Antiocheia in EB.
The greek name got distorded along the centuries Antiocheia -> Antioch -> Antakya. That big city in northern Syria next to Tarsos. Also referred to as Antioch on the Orontes.

That's the city I'm talking about. There are other Antiochs, several of them. Old man Seleucos had a tendency to name the cities after relatives of his.

But Antioch on the Orontes is propably the most famous one.

[Kugutsu]

I think he's refering to K_Cossacks post about Ankyra in Turkey. Which is indeed the capital of modern Turkey.

[The Errant]

Yup!

It's funny though. Nature buried or sunk a lot of cities. Others just seem to be rebuilt time after time. Like Troy.

Take Baghdad for example. The old Mesopotamian capital was Babylon. When Seleucos founded his new capital on the Tigris most of the people moved there. The Sassanids made their capital in Ctesphon on the opposite side of river from Seleukeia. Now both cities are buried under some suburbs of modern Baghdad.

Shame about the buried ruins though.

[Boyar Son]

Does anyone live close to an ancient site? besides ankara?

Again pic would be good.

[Kugutsu]

define ancient site. Theres a few roman remains and lots of pre-roman hill-forts near where I live... And Stonehenge isnt far away either...

[Boyar Son]

Ancient site as in... I'll be general before 477 A.D. after the fall of Rome.

Also, in MTW2 there are stonehenge at some places in my Holy Roman campaign. Just to let you know.

Pics!

[Elthore]

Im from Turkey, and I gotta say that its a real shame how many ruins there(and everywhere) that get destroyed. However, there are still many protected sites even in the busy metropolitan of todays Istanbul.
Its hard to visit any Turkish town or area without hearing of some nearby ruins. The Ottomans too reused great architecture, like adding minarets onto Hagia Sophia. Its just that there has been so much building in asia minor over the centuries, that it only takes one 'practical' builder or politician to destroy another civilization's years of work.

It happens everywhere, all through the ages: from Egyptian looters during the middle ages, to ancient Greeks in antiquity razing competing towns to the carpet bombing of WW2. Lets just hope that todays Wonders can last the test of time(and men)

[Boyar Son]

Well not to be a pessimist, but I guess the only the most important of the few gets to be. Hagia sophia and the colloseum wont be gone but numorous others will.

ww2 bombing in turkey? dont you mean the Greek and Turkish wars?

[Elthore]

i meant ww2 in Europe. Should have been more specific. As well as the mindless 'civilian' bombing (which was new to WW2), there are many cases of troops using historical forts and whatnot as defensive positions. At least they gave the structures one last use before their demise, instead of letting them turn into ruins unattended.

[Boyar Son]

Ouch! canons razing medieval structures

what kind of ruins do you see Elthore?

[Elthore]

I live in Canada now, but from my childhood I can remember
-great walls running through Istanbul
-some place called Konya near modern day Antalya
-sea side fortifications in Izmir and Antalya
-strange rock monuments (5-10feet) with faces on them by the pontic coast

sorry i cant be more specific but I was only 8(1994) when I was there, and only briefly again a few years later


EDIT: I had family that i stayed with in all 4 of those places, so i can say i lived near them ruins

[Slider6977]

Yeah, the pyramids were covered in white limestone of a much great quality then the inner brownish limestone. Throughout ancient Egyptian history the pyramids of Giza were maintained and repaired because they were a symbol of the greatess of Egypt. IIRC the Ptolemais maintained them too, maybe?

That fine limestone can still be seen though. Just go to Cairo and look at some of the Muslum mosques. Just as the Pope took away parts of the Coliseum to build St. Peter's, the Muslums carted off the pyramids to build mosques.

I've read, and believe have also seen repeated on the History Channel, that the great pyramids were indeed painted red, with hieroglyphic writing also being displayed. As some of the original limestone can be seen at the top of the great pyramid, so can (apparently) traces of the red paint.

[paullus]

for an oral history project i did interviews with american vets from ww2, one of whom, a marine engineer attached to the army corps attacking italy, talked about a firefight with Germans hiding in some Greek ruins near the landing beach the night before the main landing, while they were surveying the beach and clearing obstacles.

and while I'm saddened when I see things being buried or destroyed for present purposes (I mean, they stopped excavations at Heracleum, and now most of the town is built over by the modern urban sprawl), I also understand the needs of the actual inhabitants, and their sentiment that they're valued less than the inanimate ancient objects below them. but speaking of turkey, its funny, they do a pretty good job with some sites, but the whole nation is an archaeological site, so people are always finding stuff out in their fields and such.

[The Errant]

By the way thank's Nabaati, for telling me about the limestone covering.
I just remember the Pyramids being coated with something. Wasn't sure what.

[Nabaati]

By the way thank's Nabaati, for telling me about the limestone covering.
I just remember the Pyramids being coated with something. Wasn't sure what.

No prob.

I've read, and believe have also seen repeated on the History Channel, that the great pyramids were indeed painted red, with hieroglyphic writing also being displayed. As some of the original limestone can be seen at the top of the great pyramid, so can (apparently) traces of the red paint.

Temples were often (garishly, if you believe the reconstructions) painted and covered in scenes and writing, but not the pyramids, to the best of my knowledge and that of wikipedia's. There is a "red pyramid," but only so named because of the stone used for the structure.

[Kugutsu]

Ancient site as in... I'll be general before 477 A.D. after the fall of Rome.

Also, in MTW2 there are stonehenge at some places in my Holy Roman campaign. Just to let you know.

Pics!

Heres a couple of pics I took a couple of years ago. One is of stonehenge, I think its quite a nice one, though unfortunately there are tourists in the background, but less than in most of the pics I took. The other is the Avesbury stone circle, about 20 miles from stonehenge. Its much bigger (theres a village in the middle, and not well known, so mostly only locals go there (for the pub) and not the hordes of tourists that go to stonehenge...).
Stonehenge:

Avesbury:

[Lovejoy]

Im pretty sure Im living in an acuíent ruin actually...

[Boyar Son]

In Sweden, what civ?