Constructive Fan Input on Formations

**Brightblade** · 02-15-2007, 19:26

Dear all,

I´d like to boot up a thread, that gives some input on AI formations that the EB team uses. It goes without saying that this is an important point as unfortunately due to the poor AI itself, the formations can help in establishing a sense of coherence in battles, in particular long_spears based infantry and factions that tend to suffer the most from formations that do not suit them.

In that case, I´m wondering firstly, are formations done by the EB team done from an accuracy standpoint as the foundation for their composition or from a gameplay perspective in order to aid the inept AI? Im guessing its option one... thoughts?

**Boyar Son** · 02-15-2007, 20:40

Since most of the known world was Hellinic priority of the AI should go to phalanx units

And could you make the question a little clearer please

**Brightblade** · 02-15-2007, 20:50

Sorry I tend to get long winded... its the repressed writer in me.

Question: Are the AI formations historically accurate, or made to improve AI performance in EB? Or a mix of both?

Argument: Should they be made to improve AI performance purely and solely.

**MarcusAureliusAntoninus** · 02-15-2007, 21:17

One complaint on this subject:
Why does the Marian starting formation look like this:

?

**Philippus Flavius Homovallumus** · 02-15-2007, 23:13

Because the army is jammed up against the red line. I used to hate that in MTW.

**-Praetor-** · 02-16-2007, 03:41

Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall

Because the army is jammed up against the red line. I used to hate that in MTW.

Is it really because of that?

Or is it because our fellow has got a mayority of heavy infantry (marian legionaires) in his army, so the AI provides a good heavy infantry based formation (the offensive wedge formation)?

Besides, its wasn`t an iron rule for legion commanders to use a manipular formation... the philosophy of the legions was to adapt to circumstances.

If they had a light infantry opponent, it`s not that ahistorical that the legatus chose a wedge formation in order to split the enemy`s line in half...

If the AI chooses that formation by default when fighting with romanii, then we have a problem...

**Tuuvi** · 02-16-2007, 06:07

The AI actually chooses formations for you? I always thought it just puts the units wherever it feels like. You learn something new everyday.

**Shorebreak** · 02-16-2007, 08:54

I came across these mods during the many months of waiting for a complete version of EB:

The Candelarius' Extended Realism Mod
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55919

HicSuntDracones Mod
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62524

Both run with the BI.exe and RTR Platinum, but i wonder if its possible to convert them. I was amazed at the quality which these 2 mods brought to RTW. It has seriously been the most fun I've experianced playing RTW. Having the AI launch naval attacks on Italy and actually advancing semi-logically during a battle is worth the switch. The BI abilities are off the hook too; shield wall w/ Princieps is amazing. AI seems to flank and exploit gaps much better.

Im still not sure why EB hasnt moved towards the BI.exe mod, but these have got me excited about RTW again! Hopefully work can be done to merge these two and EB into something monumental!

**Brightblade** · 02-16-2007, 11:17

What you are talking about are tiny improvements on campaign map AI and even tinier ones in battle map AI due to BI.exe. There is already a very simple way to play EB with BI.exe.

What I´m trying to get people to discuss is the formations in the game itself, if they are really giving the AI something to work with, despite the its huge limitations.

**Teleklos Archelaou** · 02-16-2007, 16:16

It's because we have promised everyone (very early on) that we will make EB1 playable on standard RTW discs (i.e., without having to buy an expansion pack), that's why we haven't switched over.

**paullus** · 02-16-2007, 16:18

to some extent its not a question of formation as it is of your own battlefield decisions. no matter what formation you put the AI in, if you manuever in all the right ways you can tear apart any formation, isolate bits of the line, etc. you can help things with formation, but a big part is to force yourself not to use exploits and play it straight up.

Couple of examples: with Darthmod, when Darth would demonstrate the effectiveness of the formations, it was always with his army stationary, or nearly so. This helped the AI figure out what to do. Playing in a way similar to this makes battles more challenging, but it also takes out some of the generalship.
with any of these mods, if the AI is positioned in defense on high ground, it is almost always possible to get them to keep rotating until you've gotten equal or higher ground. the AI doesn't know how to assess that its losing its advantage and move into attack mode. It eventually figures it out, and sometimes it runs away, sometimes it moves to another spot, and occasionally it attacks.

I personally like to let the AI maximize by having a big battle in the plain. Perhaps that's because I'm a better recruiter than I am general. And that doesn't apply if I'm using the Getai. If I'm using them I ambush every chance I get.

And as for formations that are great, does anyone else have an astounding love/hate relationship with the steppe cav formation? Its awesome, so I love it, but it kicks my butt and takes names, so I hate it.

**Kralizec** · 02-16-2007, 21:08

In custom battles, I think the AI is pretty impressive (compared to vanilla RTW, not to a human player)

I've did a couple of battles of Koinon Hellenon versus Makedonia or Epeiros. The KH would be given one general and a bunch of classical hoplitai. The Makedones/Epeirotes would get a general plus a bunch of various phalangites.

If the KH is the AI, they deploy the hoplitai in a phalanx group formation, tight and with additional units in the back rows. They march the hoplitai coherently and attack my phalangite phalanx, and after a while they break through and sometimes even rout part of the line, especially Phalangatai Deuteroi are vulnerable to this.*
If the AI is Makedonia/Epeiros, they almost always manage to keep their phalangites in a coherent line. Using hoplitai, I can still afford a head-on clash and win through, but it's risky and will cost you a lot of men in the end.
Of course, in those battles there are no skirmishers present. The AI will probably break formation if you bombard them with stones or arrows. I agree with Paulus on this one, players should take care not to abuse the effectiveness of slingers if they want hard battles.

One large problem is be the campaign AI, who doesn't use any sense when composing their stacks. It's not uncommon to see stacks with lots of akontisai, pantodapoi, and only 2 or three elite units.
Still even when playing campaigns I'm sometimes against an AI army with a decent composition wich can often put up a good fight, or even win occasionally.

*(people will probably say that I should use Hoplitai Iphikratides, but I was trying to reinvent classical phalanx strategies, and Hoplitai Iphikratides have their own drawbacks wich I won't go into.)