Constructive Fan Input on Formations

[Shorebreak]

I came across these mods during the many months of waiting for a complete version of EB:


The Candelarius' Extended Realism Mod
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=55919

HicSuntDracones Mod
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62524

Both run with the BI.exe and RTR Platinum, but i wonder if its possible to convert them. I was amazed at the quality which these 2 mods brought to RTW. It has seriously been the most fun I've experianced playing RTW. Having the AI launch naval attacks on Italy and actually advancing semi-logically during a battle is worth the switch. The BI abilities are off the hook too; shield wall w/ Princieps is amazing. AI seems to flank and exploit gaps much better.

Im still not sure why EB hasnt moved towards the BI.exe mod, but these have got me excited about RTW again! Hopefully work can be done to merge these two and EB into something monumental!

[Brightblade]

What you are talking about are tiny improvements on campaign map AI and even tinier ones in battle map AI due to BI.exe. There is already a very simple way to play EB with BI.exe.

What I´m trying to get people to discuss is the formations in the game itself, if they are really giving the AI something to work with, despite the its huge limitations.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

It's because we have promised everyone (very early on) that we will make EB1 playable on standard RTW discs (i.e., without having to buy an expansion pack), that's why we haven't switched over.

[paullus]

to some extent its not a question of formation as it is of your own battlefield decisions. no matter what formation you put the AI in, if you manuever in all the right ways you can tear apart any formation, isolate bits of the line, etc. you can help things with formation, but a big part is to force yourself not to use exploits and play it straight up.

Couple of examples: with Darthmod, when Darth would demonstrate the effectiveness of the formations, it was always with his army stationary, or nearly so. This helped the AI figure out what to do. Playing in a way similar to this makes battles more challenging, but it also takes out some of the generalship.
with any of these mods, if the AI is positioned in defense on high ground, it is almost always possible to get them to keep rotating until you've gotten equal or higher ground. the AI doesn't know how to assess that its losing its advantage and move into attack mode. It eventually figures it out, and sometimes it runs away, sometimes it moves to another spot, and occasionally it attacks.

I personally like to let the AI maximize by having a big battle in the plain. Perhaps that's because I'm a better recruiter than I am general. And that doesn't apply if I'm using the Getai. If I'm using them I ambush every chance I get.

And as for formations that are great, does anyone else have an astounding love/hate relationship with the steppe cav formation? Its awesome, so I love it, but it kicks my butt and takes names, so I hate it.

[Kralizec]

In custom battles, I think the AI is pretty impressive (compared to vanilla RTW, not to a human player)

I've did a couple of battles of Koinon Hellenon versus Makedonia or Epeiros. The KH would be given one general and a bunch of classical hoplitai. The Makedones/Epeirotes would get a general plus a bunch of various phalangites.

If the KH is the AI, they deploy the hoplitai in a phalanx group formation, tight and with additional units in the back rows. They march the hoplitai coherently and attack my phalangite phalanx, and after a while they break through and sometimes even rout part of the line, especially Phalangatai Deuteroi are vulnerable to this.*
If the AI is Makedonia/Epeiros, they almost always manage to keep their phalangites in a coherent line. Using hoplitai, I can still afford a head-on clash and win through, but it's risky and will cost you a lot of men in the end.
Of course, in those battles there are no skirmishers present. The AI will probably break formation if you bombard them with stones or arrows. I agree with Paulus on this one, players should take care not to abuse the effectiveness of slingers if they want hard battles.

One large problem is be the campaign AI, who doesn't use any sense when composing their stacks. It's not uncommon to see stacks with lots of akontisai, pantodapoi, and only 2 or three elite units.
Still even when playing campaigns I'm sometimes against an AI army with a decent composition wich can often put up a good fight, or even win occasionally.

*(people will probably say that I should use Hoplitai Iphikratides, but I was trying to reinvent classical phalanx strategies, and Hoplitai Iphikratides have their own drawbacks wich I won't go into.)