CIA on Trial for Torture in Italy

[Idaho]

BBC Story about trial of CIA goons in Italy

I feel sorry for them. They were only following orders when they kidnapped and tortured someone. I think they should just get away with an apology and box of chocolates. After all they are protecting... er... someone's freedoms (not quite clear who's atm).

[KukriKhan]

To be clear: The US & Italian indictees are accused of abduction, not torture.

[Xiahou]

The Italian government has yet to decide whether or not it wishes to request their extradition.

Anyone willing to bet that the US will extradite CIA operatives to a foreign country to stand trial?

[Ser Clegane]

Anyone willing to bet that the US will extradite CIA operatives to a foreign country to stand trial?

Considering the outcome of the cavalese cablecar incident I think I'd rather invest my money in beer...

[rory_20_uk]

Purely a PR exercise. Italy can appear to be taking a strong stand on something that in fact it can't alter.

Who said Italians were cowards ;)

[BDC]

I was under the impression abducting someone's citizen from his own country was regarded as, you know, an act of war or something.

Damn me and my old fashioned views on decency and sovereignty.

[Pannonian]

I was under the impression abducting someone's citizen from his own country was regarded as, you know, an act of war or something.

Damn me and my old fashioned views on decency and sovereignty.

It's wrong when Palestinians and Lebanese do it. It's right when Americans do it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I was under the impression abducting someone's citizen from his own country was regarded as, you know, an act of war or something.

Damn me and my old fashioned views on decency and sovereignty.

You know it's funny, I always thought that as well. Must be a British thing, which is why it doesn't apply to America.

[Xiahou]

It's also worth pointing out that the topic title is pretty much false. They're not on trial and it's not for torture.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Do you suggest that the CIA acted alone, in a vacuum so to speak, and that none of the EU member nation Secret Service's were involved or had knowledge of this activity?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Good to see that the accuracy of news headlines is consistent throughout the western world!

[ShadeHonestus]

I was under the impression abducting someone's citizen from his own country was regarded as, you know, an act of war or something.

Damn me and my old fashioned views on decency and sovereignty.

I don't think this is a truth of a person being abducted in their own country alone and if that is the case South America would be a smoldering pile of burnt rain forest and the middle east would be made of glass. How many foreign nationals are abducted in SA alone each year?

Probably one of the worst when it comes to state sanctioned abducting is Israel. I use the term state rather tightly, as in a stable government that runs on more than the price of oil or cocaine that week.

[Tribesman]

Do you suggest that the CIA acted alone, in a vacuum so to speak, and that none of the EU member nation Secret Service's were involved or had knowledge of this activity?

Would that be why 7 Italians are also to be charged ?

Fair play to the Italians , they beat the Germans to it .
Though of course the Germans have to get the paperwork in order for two trials not one like Italy .

It's also worth pointing out that the topic title is pretty much false. They're not on trial and it's not for torture.

Correct , they will not be on trial for torture they will be tried in abstentia for their role in kidnap .

Anyone willing to bet that the US will extradite CIA operatives to a foreign country to stand trial?

Good point , they are so far refusing to extradite people for blowing up airliners or murdering tourists , so yes you are on to a safe bet there Xiahou .
Nasty criminal acts are really horrible and must be punished , unless of course they are linked to the CIA , in which case the perpetrators must be protected from justice .

[Spetulhu]

I was under the impression abducting someone's citizen from his own country was regarded as, you know, an act of war or something.

I don't think this is a truth of a person being abducted in their own country alone and if that is the case South America would be a smoldering pile of burnt rain forest and the middle east would be made of glass. How many foreign nationals are abducted in SA alone each year?

How many of those foreigners are kidnapped by the government instead of criminals seeking ransom? Kidnapping is criminal, and it's certainly not less so if a government agency carries it out on foreign soil. They insult the target country by not asking for extradition as laws dictate. Diplomatically this is the equivalent of saying "you suck, we'll take what we want, and what are you going to do about it".

[Hosakawa Tito]

Would that be why 7 Italians are also to be charged ?

Fair play to the Italians , they beat the Germans to it .
Though of course the Germans have to get the paperwork in order for two trials not one like Italy .



Correct , they will not be on trial for torture they will be tried in abstentia for their role in kidnap .


Good point , they are so far refusing to extradite people for blowing up airliners or murdering tourists , so yes you are on to a safe bet there Xiahou .
Nasty criminal acts are really horrible and must be punished , unless of course they are linked to the CIA , in which case the perpetrators must be protected from justice .

Can of Worms

You're getting warmer.

[KukriKhan]

... Kidnapping is criminal, and it's certainly not less so if a government agency carries it out on foreign soil. They insult the target country by not asking for extradition as laws dictate. Diplomatically this is the equivalent of saying "you suck, we'll take what we want, and what are you going to do about it".

If it is shown that the local (German, Italian, whatever) intel guys were not advised, then I agree with you. But my money is on cross-agency covert coordination having taken place.

That said, the movement of targets to torture-friendly states, for the express purpose of extracting info by means illegal in the US or by US personnel, needs a serious, scrupulous look by the US Congress and judiciary.

It ain't right, IMO, no matter how many theoretical 'friendly' lives are supposedly saved.

If we can't find, fix, and eliminate mass killers and their backers, without resort to barbarism... then we don't deserve the title "superpower", or any respect for our American 'experiment'.

In my personal opinion.

[Tribesman]

Can of Worms

You're getting warmer.

No mention of my illustrious government in that article Hosa , might have to write to that publication asking them to do a piece on pressuring our judiciary to put a few of our bastards on trial for their role in this crap .

Though so far articles in the Irish press , public protests and motions in the Dail by the opposition havn't managed any results yet .

[Idaho]

It's also worth pointing out that the topic title is pretty much false. They're not on trial and it's not for torture.

So a government agency which abducts people for the sole purpose of taking them to countries to be tortured is in no way complicit and responsible for that torture?

So if I tie you to a train track I am only guilty of false imprisonment and have no responsibility for you being crushed under the next express?

[Tribesman]

So if I tie you to a train track I am only guilty of false imprisonment and have no responsibility for you being crushed under the next express?

Yes , the guilt lies with the victim for not getting put on the tracks in the first place and the train driver for being in charge of the train .
Anyhow tying someone to the tracks so they think they may get killed or actually get killed is not torture it is a vital element in the war of terror , hell they did worse than that to me in boot camp

[KukriKhan]

So a few of us have apparently already decided that the indictees are guilty. Question:

If that Italian court agrees with that verdict, what would be the most appropriate punishment for the perpetrators, in your opinion?

[ajaxfetish]

So a government agency which abducts people for the sole purpose of taking them to countries to be tortured is in no way complicit and responsible for that torture?

So if I tie you to a train track I am only guilty of false imprisonment and have no responsibility for you being crushed under the next express?

He didn't say they're not responsible for torture. He said they're not on trial for torture, which is what the thread title claimed.

Ajax

[Redleg]

Yes , the guilt lies with the victim for not getting put on the tracks in the first place and the train driver for being in charge of the train .
Anyhow tying someone to the tracks so they think they may get killed or actually get killed is not torture it is a vital element in the war of terror , hell they did worse than that to me in boot camp

Which bootcamp was that Tribesman?

I took out the obvious reference to the a certain criminal element in Ireland. But one should be careful in being obnoxious if one does not want it in return.

[Mooks]

People that torture should be executed. Torturing is worse then plain murder.

[Hepcat]

People that torture should be executed. Torturing is worse then plain murder.

Agreed, it really bugs me though how they can still claim they don't torture.

[Tribesman]

I took out the obvious reference to the a certain criminal element in Ireland. But one should be careful in being obnoxious if one does not want it in return.

Errrrr ....thanks for the advice Red , but if you want to be obnoxious then you need a little more practice .

[Adrian II]

The Italian judge also ordered seven Italians, including the then chief of intelligence, to stand trial.

Lawyers say they have compiled thousands of pages of documents and testimony from Italian agents past and present, some of whom have acknowledged working with the US in planning the abduction.

Seems to me that some American and British posters are jealous to see democracy in action in another country. The contrast with their own judiciary is rather blatant. I wish ours had the courage.

Anyone willing to bet that the US will extradite CIA operatives to a foreign country to stand trial?

This isn't the first time that you miss the point about this matter. The point is that innocent people are arrested, detained without trial and transported to third countries to be tortured. This could happen to anyone with the wrong face, name or file who happens to be somewhere, anywhere, at the wrong time. You could be next. And if you were, I'd be willing to bet more than one case of beer that it would radically change your mind on the issue of U.S. illegal kidnapping. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe you refuse to take a long hard look at this issue because you are afraid of what you will see.

[Stormcrow]

So a few of us have apparently already decided that the indictees are guilty. Question:

If that Italian court agrees with that verdict, what would be the most appropriate punishment for the perpetrators, in your opinion?

How about putting them on the wanted terrorists list and put them on a plain to egypt?

This war on terror is stupid. It ,in combination with military&economic power, seems to give the governments a charter to do whatever they please...

[Redleg]

Errrrr ....thanks for the advice Red , but if you want to be obnoxious then you need a little more practice .

Oh I left the really obnoxious part off there Tribes.

But instead of trolling like you do, I decided to play nice. However I can easily change that to reflect what I initially stated if you wish. You do know what criminal element in Ireland I refered to in the previous post?

Care to play that game with me once again?

[Redleg]

This isn't the first time that you miss the point about this matter. The point is that innocent people are arrested, detained without trial and transported to third countries to be tortured. This could happen to anyone with the wrong face, name or file who happens to be somewhere, anywhere, at the wrong time. You could be next. And if you were, I'd be willing to bet more than one case of beer that it would radically change your mind on the issue of U.S. illegal kidnapping. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe you refuse to take a long hard look at this issue because you are afraid of what you will see.

Well have to wait and see what the Italian courts actually do in the meantime. However since from what I have read the individuals are not on trail for torture - to claim its a torture trail is irrevelant. The individuals are being tried for the crimes that they committed in Italy. The detaining and kidnapping of citizens of Italy.

Now let us wait to see what the court actually does in June. 4 Months is a long time before the trail actually begins, How much of this is political pressure being applied right now - and how much is legal recourse will have to wait until June to actually discover.

Now I am more interested in reading about the report that talks about other European nations assisting, aiding, and otherwise allowing the United States to carry out such mission under the direction of the Intelligence Service of that nation.

[Adrian II]

Now I am more interested in reading about the report that talks about other European nations assisting, aiding, and otherwise allowing the United States to carry out such mission under the direction of the Intelligence Service of that nation.

There are legal investigations under way in Germany, Spain, Romenia, Portugal and Switzerland as well as in Brussels. But I am more interested in reading about the instigators than reading about the accomplices. In the U.S. several committees of Congress are said to want to review the policy under pressure from voters. Let's hope this whole policy will crumble soon. 'Guantanamo' may yet become the symbol of a failed presidency.