Archery range bug

[Lavos]

I think, this one's around from the start. I don't think its huge problem with it but there is some way in exploiting it.
Anyway, thing is that if any unit comes into range of shooter unit, they will start shooting at it and every time will get a volley on them even if that unit moves far away from normal range of the shooter. It's most noticeable when some cav gets into range of xbows and then run away from their range. It always takes some time for xbows to shot and by that time cav can be far away from them, still xbows will miraculously shot at them and hit. I think this thing was always present in tw series, but previously if unit was shooting beyond their range, it did kill almost nothing. Now, (particulary xbows) can get quite a lot kills in one extra range volley.
I don't think you can exploit it with foot units, since its always opponent who can give you opportunity for it, but one can use his horse archers so that they get one extra shot and give him an edge over opponents ha.

[machiavelli69]

It's not a bug! arrows have a heat-tracking device

[Lavos]

Hehe, I souldn't call it a bug, I kinda look on it like an option. :)

[pevergreen]

Yeah its kind of unrealistic. But then so is some of the other things in TW games.

[Puzz3D]

I think this thing was always present in tw series, but previously if unit was shooting beyond their range, it did kill almost nothing. Now, (particulary xbows) can get quite a lot kills in one extra range volley.

It was not present in the old battle engine. As soon as the targeting arrow turns red, the unit stops shooting. Also, in the old engine each man aims at an individual enemy man so the chance of hitting him drops off as the target moves further away because accuracy is a small random error introduced on the trajectory of the projectile. There is a chance of hitting a man that was not the primary target.

[x-dANGEr]

It was not present in the old battle engine. As soon as the targeting arrow turns red, the unit stops shooting. Also, in the old engine each man aims at an individual enemy man so the chance of hitting him drops off as the target moves further away because accuracy is a small random error introduced on the trajectory of the projectile. There is a chance of hitting a man that was not the primary target.

Good to know. :P

But umm.. I think it is wrong.

[Lavos]

Puzz, if you wouldn't look at everything so black, you'd notice that new archery system (with its flaws of course) is more advanced, than old one. Hitting other than main primary target is still here. Xbows deployed behind some unit will shoot in weird high arch and do little, arrows have bonus shooting in flanks, and even bonus shooting into right side of units that have shield.
Ranged units are less valued not because they don't kill. Their kill ratio is now much higher than before. There is couple of new problems now. They cost a lot (main reason; no need to upgrade foot and cav!), instead of taking lbows or pavise xbows you can take very effective horses or spears-pikes. Also, previously, it was enough that lbows killed four knights from one group, that was enough for that group to rout faster when engaged with other knights. And finally, in mtw it was main job of archer units to force opponent to attack. Defending player had advantage, now its different its more an advantage for who attacks.

[Puzz3D]

Puzz, if you wouldn't look at everything so black, you'd notice that new archery system (with its flaws of course) is more advanced, than old one. Hitting other than main primary target is still here. Xbows deployed behind some unit will shoot in weird high arch and do little, arrows have bonus shooting in flanks, and even bonus shooting into right side of units that have shield.
Ranged units are less valued not because they don't kill. Their kill ratio is now much higher than before. There is couple of new problems now. They cost a lot (main reason; no need to upgrade foot and cav!), instead of taking lbows or pavise xbows you can take very effective horses or spears-pikes. Also, previously, it was enough that lbows killed four knights from one group, that was enough for that group to rout faster when engaged with other knights. And finally, in mtw it was main job of archer units to force opponent to attack. Defending player had advantage, now its different its more an advantage for who attacks.

The archery system is not more advanced in the new engine. That's a misconception that's being perpetrated. Everything you mentioned and more happens in the old engine except the "weird trajectories". Also, the dynamic balance between attack and defense that existed in the original STW game has deteriorated. You're right that defender had an advantage in MTW, and then it switched around to attacker having the advantage in RTW.

You're own initial post points out a problem in the new engine, and then you claimed it existed in the old engine. Well, it doesn't.

[Carlos]

There is a lot of things which needs to be addressed in MTW2, still game engine is not as bad as some people think.

One question Puzz. You have have made a programme for STW engine. How come that if following info is correct no one know more about STW engine then AMP or Kocmoc? They surpased you despite having less theoretical background knowledge. Maybe because they had more practical understanding of the game engine itself? I guess this could be the answer.

Even CA programmers didn't understand STW engine good enough.They made STW but they did not know how game actually works. This sounds paradoxical but not until you find out that they lost vs amp, koc and magyar.

And I do not doubt that AMP or Kocmoc would find exploits in STW mod if they would be playing it. That's for sure.

[Puzz3D]

There is a lot of things which needs to be addressed in MTW2, still game engine is not as bad as some people think.

It's better than RTW engine. Well isn't that great!

One question Puzz. You have have made a programme for STW engine. How come that if following info is correct no one know more about STW engine then AMP or Kocmoc? They surpased you despite having less theoretical background knowledge. Maybe because they had more practical understanding of the game engine itself? I guess this could be the answer.

They don't know more than I do, but they are better players. Just the same, I do ok. I won a 2v2 tournament back in STW, and Kocmoc and Magyar were a team in that tourney. I beat the team that beat them. Kocmoc was on the STW/MI v1.02 beta team with me, and he didn't display any deep understanding of the engine. He and Magyar were self identified "feel" guys. They called Tosa and I "number" guys. They don't know by how much to change a numerical stat to get a desired effect. Ask them if M2TW is better than original STW.

Amp seems to focus on utilizing exploits. For instance, he didn't want the swipe bug fixed in MTW. He also doesn't publicly reveal exploits when he finds them because then other player can use those exploits against him. That's just the way he chooses to play the game in a competitive fashion, but he's still a great player. I don't like that approach to the game because it's unfair to new players. My feeling is that everyone should be on an even playing field after maybe 25 battles or so as far as understanding the game mechanics. There shouldn't be hidden exploits in the game that they have no way of knowing about that other players are taking advantage of.

Even CA programmers didn't understand STW engine good enough. They made STW but they did not know how game actually works. This sounds paradoxical but not until you find out that they lost vs amp, koc and magyar.

The gameplay in STW was probably better than they ever imagined it would be, but it wasn't an accident. LongJohn made some very good decisions on how to balance the whole system. Having said that, the resultant gameplay in MP probably exceeded even his expectations because he once said that balance to about 25% was good enough, but STW was balanced much better than that. I would say it was balanced to better than 10%, and that's around the level of imbalance of which a multiplayer can take advantage. The warrior monk wasn't out of balance by more than 10%, and yet players could exploit that, and it took an expert player to defeat it. So I agree with you that the reason CA has never been able to repeat the success of that first game in terms of MP gameplay is that they messed around with something that shouldn't have been changed so much. The move to hundreds of units and many factions made the thing impossible to balance anywhere near the balance of the original game.

In Samurai Wars we just used LongJohn's original starting as a starting point, and changed it very little. It models the gameplay of original STW as played at 5000 koku where you could sell off honor on the ranged units. You can't do that in MTW, so the ranged units are priced lower to reflect the value that multiplayers came to find was best by experience. We raied the morale of the units because in STW you bought units at honor 2 which adds +4 morale, but in MTW/VI you buy them at valor 0 so no morale is added except the hidden +2 that was added in VI. After playing Samurai Wars for a year, we found that some of the lower morale units needed another +2 morale to be useful. We also had to adjust charge values because MTW/VI charge works a little differently than did STW charge.

And I do not doubt that AMP or Kocmoc would find exploits in STW mod if they would be playing it. That's for sure.

We got AMP to test Samurai Wars. He and Swoosh did find an exploit with cav units, and we fixed it. Magyar also helped test Samurai Wars, and we adjusted cav archers based on his observations. We had about 10 top players testing Samurai Wars.

[Lavos]

The archery system is not more advanced in the new engine. That's a misconception that's being perpetrated. Everything you mentioned and more happens in the old engine except the "weird trajectories". Also, the dynamic balance between attack and defense that existed in the original STW game has deteriorated. You're right that defender had an advantage in MTW, and then it switched around to attacker having the advantage in RTW.

You're own initial post points out a problem in the new engine, and then you claimed it existed in the old engine. Well, it doesn't.

First, I did not claim it existed, I said I thought it was the same. I haven't played mtw almost for a year, things like that play with peoples mind. Weird thing is, I still remember almost ten of my 1v1 armies.
Second, you don't get any bonus (could be very small) shooting into flanks in mtw and shogun. And hit ratio was worse then, especially when archers got tired, you could have full pav unit, but if they were tired they killed nothing. It's not so now, step back from realism, but gameplay wise, its better. No slow games where everyone is resting their pavs. Or even games where defending team, even tho they lost pav war, just wait until opponents ran out of ammo, just because defending was easier.
I never considered archery good in total wars, some things were better before and some are better now, but nether is perfect.

[CBR]

...you could have full pav unit, but if they were tired they killed nothing. It's not so now, step back from realism, but gameplay wise, its better. No slow games where everyone is resting their pavs. Or even games where defending team, even tho they lost pav war, just wait until opponents ran out of ammo, just because defending was easier.

I certainly consider that to be improvement over the horrible drawn out pav fights in MTW yes. With VI we lost the powerful arbs in high era and gameplay deterioated because of that. But the slow reload of arbs were still not good for gameplay.

But what bonus does missile units get from shooting into the flank?


CBR

[Puzz3D]

First, I did not claim it existed, I said I thought it was the same.

I posted to inform people that it isn't the same in the old engine, and people started jumping all over me that I don't have M2TW. I think this is a minor issue compared to other issues I've seen posted by people who have M2TW. There is a snowball's chance in hell that this issue is addressed by CA in a patch unless it's a very easy thing to change.

Second, you don't get any bonus (could be very small) shooting into flanks in mtw and shogun.

Of course you don't get any bonus in the old engine because you don't need it. It's a physics based model. It you study the trajectory characteristics of an arrow in the old engine, you see overshoots and undershoots. The deeper the formation of the target unit, the more hits you get. Since archers work best in wide, shallow formations, that's how they are usually used, and if you enfilade such a formation, you will get more kills. I've tested this and I'll look for my test results, but I don't know if I can find them.

And hit ratio was worse then, especially when archers got tired, you could have full pav unit, but if they were tired they killed nothing. It's not so now, step back from realism, but gameplay wise, its better. No slow games where everyone is resting their pavs. Or even games where defending team, even tho they lost pav war, just wait until opponents ran out of ammo, just because defending was easier.

You point out what is a huge problem in MTW gameplay, and I agree with you. It's one of the reasons I don't use MTW as the standard of comapision for Total War gameplay. LongJohn admitted that the fatigue rates were not changed from STW fatigue rate so they are not optimized for the larger maps of MTW. In addition, the reload rate of xbows is 15 seconds so they take a long time to use their ammo and get very tired which is another non-optimization of fatigue rate. Once they become very tired, they can't hit anything, and they are already weak to start. You are right that it doesn't matter if you loose the xbow shootout because the winner can't do anything effective with his xbows after that. The MTW gameplay has this long meaningless shootout phase, and the Silent Clan showed long ago that you don't have to take any shooters in MTW except maybe a token 2 or 3 units of xbows.

Archers are still the same as in STW with 4 second reload, but they are shooting at units which have, on average, a lot more armor than they did in STW. Again, no optimization was done on archer effectiveness for MTW except that longbows get a 0.5 armor modifier for their arrow. Guns are also extremely weak in MTW, and the really weird thing is that they are the best melee units in the game with the upgrades they can get at the florin levels used in MP.

I never considered archery good in total wars, some things were better before and some are better now, but nether is perfect.

Archers are pretty good in STW because the overall armor is less, and are very good in Samurai Wars. An archer costing 400 koku can kill 90 warrior monks costing 1000 for a 60 man unit. It gets the same kill rate on no-dachi and yari-ashi and high kills on the lower armored cav units. Even the guns are 50% better than they were in STW.

A problem in the old engine with archery is that kill rate drops as the target looses men. Intuitively you whould expect the kill rate to go up since more arrows are available to target each man. I think this is because the number of ranks decreases, and you are less likely to get secondary kills. Another issue is that archers do not lead their target so they are a lot less effective against moving targets than they should be. However, they are effective against targets that are moving more or less directly away from them which may be the result of the overshoots.

The new engine could work well for archery as long as it is including enough parameters to model the situation. It does do very well when shooting at targets with diminishing men which you would expect from a statistically based model where the probablility of killing a certain number of men per volley remains constant.