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Thread: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

  1. #91
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by JaM
    I'm not telling that armor values are ignored. I'm just pointing, that if your idea works, it means armor values are ignored!
    Just wanted to point out that this is not the idea we've been representing. We don't primarily think that a unit attaining level 2 upgrade will have its armour value replaced by a 5. What we think (at least I do I know) is that the upgrade will ADD 5 to whatever unit gets it). Thus the values in the EDU do still matter quite a lot - it's just that the armor upgrades give bonuses that aren't always just +1.

    As for Re Berengario I's recent post, we do not care at all what value is actually used in the combat calculations by the game. Only two things matter for the purposes of this discussion:

    1. Units that perform the same in a given situation with only ONE variable changed, must in fact have equal values of that variable, or else that variable is entirely inconsequential (zero effect in the battle calcs). These two cases are the only ways the results can be equal.
    2. We've shown in many many cases already that units using upgrades to gain armor consistently perform identically to units having those same armor amounts set in the EDU (armor amounts as understood by the value system, as opposed to the +1 system).

    In all our testing, we kept everything the same except for giving the units defense from one of two sources: upgrades, and numbers in the EDU. That we then achieve identical results either way indicates one of the following (from 1 above):

    1. armor values and armor upgrades are both ignored in battle calculations.
    2. armor values and armor upgrades were causing identical effects in battle calculations.

    #1 is clearly seen to be false, as you get varying results by setting different values of armor in the EDU for any given unit. That leaves #2 as the only possible explanation.

    So it really makes no difference what the game does with those armour amounts - it is enough that we understand each point of armor has a positive effect on unit defense, and 5 points of armor, not 2, are equal to upgrade level 2. You don't need to understand underlying game mechanics in order to comprehend the relative value of a given armor upgrade level, and how the method in place grants more benefits than a simple +1 upgrade scheme would.


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  2. #92
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Foz, I'd agree with you if the units info scroll would say:

    Armor: base 10 + upgrade 1

    But unfortunately for CA it says:

    Armor 11

    And always very unfortunately 11 is not 15 in decimal notation... or maybe the unit info switch to hexadecimal when armor upgrades are presents and 11 hex becomes then 17 in decimal. Nasty trick, isn't it? ;)

    Then I refuse to believe professional programmers like CA ones use two different values for the same thing. If you're right and 11 is 15 in real terms you know that this means something really really wrong is in the code?
    Last edited by Re Berengario I; 02-21-2007 at 03:21.

  3. #93

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Re Berengario I
    If you're right and 11 is 15 in real terms you know that this means something really really wrong is in the code?
    You mean like values suddenly inverting depending on the kind of attack?
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  4. #94
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    uhm...nothing has to be "really really wrong", as this thread has shown that the battle mechanics work like they should....The only fault is the unit card description... And I would call that a minor visual bug.

    That's how it affects non-modders anyway. If you want to go crazy in the files it may be a bigger problem, I wouldn't know about that really, my own tweaking is rather minor...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  5. #95
    Masticator of Oreos Member Foz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Re Berengario I
    Foz, I'd agree with you if the units info scroll would say:

    Armor: base 10 + upgrade 1

    But unfortunately for CA it says:

    Armor 11

    And always very unfortunately 11 is not 15 in decimal notation... or maybe the unit info switch to hexadecimal when armor upgrades are presents and 11 hex becomes then 17 in decimal. Nasty trick, isn't it? ;)

    Then I refuse to believe professional programmers like CA ones use two different values for the same thing. If you're right and 11 is 15 in real terms you know that this means something really really wrong is in the code?
    11 is 10+1. Is it so hard to imagine that the line of code responsible for the display value takes 10 and adds 1*(number of armor upgrades) to it? All that would have to happen is for two different people to write the 2 parts of the code that are in question, and for one of them to not correctly understand that the upgrades had values that weren't simply +1 each. It's also possible that the code came from somewhere else (maybe RTW or ideas considered for it?) and was subsequently overlooked for modification, resulting in this disparity. As multiple programmers are involved in the project, and it runs for so long, I actually would find it a bit remarkable if no such disparities could be found in any given project...


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  6. #96

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    ha - I think it's pretty established that there are several really really wrong things in the code, not knocking CA - i still love their game, and I'm sure they did their best with the time they had and we know they're still working hard to make it better - just stating a fact... I don't think oddities should be that surprising... just in doing my own simple tinkers I've found out how easy it is to make mistakes - a project this big with that many ppl working on it... I'm starting to understand why ppl say: be glad it's in working condition

    secondly, I'm thinking that the level two upgrade moves the defense on par with a 6 instead of a 5, that would explain Carls results, and in Lusteds tests the 5* Billmen performed slightly better than the 5 Berdiche, and there's one value on the 5*Billmen which falls outside of the grouping... so given that lvl 2 is supposed to be "Light Mail" - I think going from Leather to Chain might actually be a 2 point bonus
    Last edited by SMZ; 02-21-2007 at 05:10.
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  7. #97

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by SMZ
    I think going from Leather to Chain might actually be a 2 point bonus
    That would actually make a lot of sense... the difference between leather armor of the best kind and metal of any kind is dramatic.
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  8. #98
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    What killed my day was not just the upgrades, BUT I used archers with arrow damage 1, and they did a damage to a unit with armor 12!

    looses were:13,14,11,19..... Thats what is wrong.Arrows are extremly powerfull.


    About chain, Chain is not too much stronger than Leather, look at Point Blank formula. Padded armor is able to stop attack with 30J of energy. Hardenned leather 60J and Chail mail 75J.

    What if you will wanna create mod with different armor representation? What then? You will have to abadon whole upgrade thing, because you will be not able to upgrade unit and have value 2,3,4... because it is HARDCODED!

    That means, only one official way of armor representation is possible (even if it is not right), for me, it is totally mod killing thing. Even more than that shield bug.
    Last edited by JaM; 02-21-2007 at 09:22.

  9. #99

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    and that should really sink home how important it is to refit pikemen, since most of them jump straight to chain with their first upgrade - that'd be 6 extra points of armour... and the misleading descr only says 1
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  10. #100

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Arrows are extremly powerfull.
    The only powerful thing about arrows is that they allow you to strike the enemy without being struck back...

    even eastern peasants with attack of 1 could cause casualties - it's just that in melee you're killing them a lot faster than they can kill you... and then with their crappy morale, they rout - so they prolly only cause 1 or 2.... but with arrows, you get free shots at the enemy - if you give anybody free shots, they will cause casualties - ie: if you flanked with peasants, they would cause casualties before the other unit could respond

    Chain is not too much stronger than Leather
    ehh... it's a lot harder to slash thru metal links than it is thru boiled leather - poking with enough force works yeah, but that's why most warriors wearing chain wore thick padding underneath, prevents discomfort, and stops poking... so really chainmail clad warrior would be significant better defended than just leather/padding guy, cause chainmail guy will have padding on too
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  11. #101
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I'm ok with that. But why there are only official values possible? why there is no modding possibility for armor upgrades? Why it is Hardcoded? That makes all attempts to balance units totally imposible, because whole system is hardcoded that only official EDU will work. Any changes to that are prohibited and will not work... thats Total Comunism...
    Last edited by JaM; 02-21-2007 at 09:38.

  12. #102
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Does any brave soul want to summarise the results of this thread, in a non-tester, gameplay oriented way so I can put it into the FAQ?

    Specifically, what do we now know about the effect of the various armour upgrades, particularly in terms of equivalent increments in the armour stat?

    I'll take a stab at it after work if no one else does, but I'd rather it came from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

  13. #103

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    well, I imagine that's just being business savy - I mean, it'd be nice if they released the code completely so we could run free with it - but that would make it easy for unscrupolous persons and companies to steal their work...

    biggest thing that's bugging me right now is inability to choose faction heir... but i mean, you can't run a company on the honor system, if you put all your merchandise out on the street corner and walk away... it won't be there when you get back - so I think it gets down to, if you want complete freedom over a game, you gotta make it yourself
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  14. #104
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    We're not talking about having the source code under our fingers but just to have some numbers which can make sense.

    Take as example d20 system. If your 20 faced dice roll plus your attack value can overcome your opponent armor you scored a hit.
    You then can design every armor system which is coherent and consistent using those values. A base armor of 25 cannot be hit by someone who has a attack value of 4. Period.
    But those are values where 1 means 1 and not 4... wait maybe 6 if it's from leather to chain... or maybe it's 5?

  15. #105

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    @ econ - well, iunno if you want to quote this, but to summarize - so far we know...

    lvl 0 = flesh = 0 defense (this is sure)
    lvl 1 = leather/padded = 4 defense (this is sure)
    lvl 2 = light mail/chain = either 5 or 6 defense, and I'm inclined to say 6
    lvl 3 = breastplate/scale = 7 defense (this is sure)
    lvl 4 = partial plate = 8 defense (this is sure)
    lvl 5 = full plate = either 9 or 10 defense, I'm not sure quite yet, most of our tests focused on the lower end where it was easier to see results... will get back to you
    lvl 6 = advanced plate = 11 defense (this is sure)

    Armour upgrades apparently function as they are described to. There is no cut and dry answer of how much defense the first, second or third upgrade will add, it depends on the unit. If you want to know how much the upgrade will benefit you, you'll need to compare what armour you have now, what type of armour you will be getting, and the above table. For instance, most pikemen are trained with only their bare skin and a tunic, so they come out with 0 defense from armour. However, their first upgrade says they will be refited with Light Mail - and so, after upgrading them once, they will have an additional 6 points of armour. A second upgrade will only improve them by one more point, and the third upgrade by one further point.

    This capability can completely change the way you use units. For instance, Viking Raiders start out with only 9 defense, barely better than Town Militia - however after three upgrades they will gain an additional 7 points of defense to end up at 16, and capable of filling in for your Norse Swordsmen.
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  16. #106

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Re Berengario I
    We're not talking about having the source code under our fingers but just to have some numbers which can make sense.

    Take as example d20 system. If your 20 faced dice roll plus your attack value can overcome your opponent armor you scored a hit.
    You then can design every armor system which is coherent and consistent using those values. A base armor of 25 cannot be hit by someone who has a attack value of 4. Period.
    But those are values where 1 means 1 and not 4... wait maybe 6 if it's from leather to chain... or maybe it's 5?
    in fairness however - that's one of the things I actually don't like about d&d - it's just as much of an abstraction as CA's mystical leprauchaun gears - more in some ways... regardless, I doubt it's a case of random numbers - the mistake is simple.. the text is wrong... it's a typo, that's all

    just like the Sherwood Archers are described as being able to "hide anywhere" and in fact they can't... we don't have to run around in circles wondering how we'll ever figure out what the unit is like and is supposed to be like - we know that's a typo

    and likewise, now we know the armour upgrade numbers are typos
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  17. #107
    Confiscator of Swords Member dopp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I think advanced plate is 10 or 11. Gothic Knights are 10, Gendarmes are 11, but both are level 6 for armor upgrades.

  18. #108

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    the file is full of inconsistent numbers... i don't know if it was meant to be like that or not, but in my own - I standarized the armour numbers and made up the differences in the defense skill numbers

    since these armour upgrades aren't modifiable however, we are able to figure out what the numbers are supposed to be for the natural armour scores
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  19. #109
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    That makes all attempts to balance units totally imposible, because whole system is hardcoded that only official EDU will work.
    No it just means you have to take into account the armour upgrade system
    when balancing units.

    And im guessing you didn't mod RTW, because the armour upgrades/weapon upgrades weren't modifiable in it either, but a lot of other things hardcoded in RTW have been opened up for us in M2TW.

    Im thinking of doing more tests to work out exactly what armour value each armour level gives. If other people want to help me here is what im testing.

    All battles done in an unmodified M2TW, map spanish plains, midday, clear weather VH difficulty.

    All battles versus Frech peasant archers.

    Units to test, testing each one 5 times unpugraded, and 5 times on each of its upgrade levels.:

    Billmen: Base armour 0. Armour levels: Flesh, Padded/Leather, Light Mail
    Croat Axemen: Base armour 4. Armour levels: Padded/Leather, Light Mail
    Berdiche Axemen: Base Armour 5. Armour Levels: Light Mail, Hevy Mail, Partial Plate
    Heavy Billmen: Base Armour 7. Armour Levels: Heavy Mail, Partial Plate
    Heavy Pike Militia(with spearwall and guard mode OFF): Base Armour 8. Armour Levels: Partial Plate, Full Plate
    Dismounted Gothic Knights: Base Armour 10.

    I cannot find any units with armour levels 5, 6 without a shield, so i cannot really test that. And i cannot find any units with armour level 5 and without a shield.

  20. #110
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by SMZ
    the file is full of inconsistent numbers...
    That's exactly the problem and the point I was trying to bring to general (and hopefully CA's) attention.

    I'm not arguing that their combat system is bad or good, I just wanted to know if it is consistent.

    If SMZ and Foz are right about their findings then the first armor upgrade counts like 4 armor, the next one 1 or 2, the second 1, the third... etc

    All in all it doesn't make any sense and if it works this way balancing units would be a nightmare.

    I am starting to suspect that the basic value for armor is hidden from us and it's linked to the "quality" of the armor (none, leather, chain, etc...) and that the armor value in EDU is just needed to fine tuning units inside the same armor category. This would also explain why peasants tested with native 4 armor are a lot less resilient than peasants with 0 native armor and 3 armor upgrade.

  21. #111
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    This would also explain why peasants tested with native 4 armor are a lot less resilient than peasants with 0 native armor and 3 armor upgrade.
    Well yes because if armour upgrades work correctly like the tests are showing, then armour upgrade 3 peasants have 7 defense, not 4.
    If SMZ and Foz are right about their findings then the first armor upgrade counts like 4 armor, the next one 1 or 2, the second 1, the third... etc

    All in all it doesn't make any sense and if it works this way balancing units would be a nightmare.
    But it does make sense, these values help to distinquish between the different armour types, and tie into the new armour upgrade system in M2TW.

    And i am guessing like you that the variances in basic armour stats allow for variety within the various armour levels.

  22. #112
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted
    And i am guessing like you that the variances in basic armour stats allow for variety within the various armour levels.
    It's the only possibility for the system to have a logic and that's also explain the unit info bug. Actually they didn't use 2 different formulas, simply put who wrote the unit info code made an addition of two different variables which weren't supposed to be added (and aren't added anywhere else in the combat code).

  23. #113
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    It's the only possibility for the system to have a logic and that's also explain the unit info bug. Actually they didn't use 2 different formulas, simply put who wrote the unit info code made an addition of two different variables which weren't supposed to be added (and aren't added anywhere else in the combat code).
    Or they didn't update the code that linked the unit info to the new armour upgrade system, so it still uses the RTW code that shows +1 for every armour upgrade.

  24. #114

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Well we are a lot better off than yesterday, now we have a clearer picture of how things work and can proceed from there.

  25. #115
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Unfortunately I am at work but if anyone can, please do this little test.

    Get pesants and while mantaining stat_armor of 0 give them an armour_ug_levels of 4 and test them together with Dismounted Noble Knights (which are shieldless and with a base armour_ug_levels of 4 too but stat_armor of 8).

    If the outcome will show little difference than we'll know that the real armor stat is the armour_ug_levels (which defines the different kind of armour) while stat_armor is just a rebalancing inside the same level.

  26. #116
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Well didn't Carl or SMZ earlier in this thread do a test of giving pike militia armour 0 upgrade 3, and then armour 7 and got the same results, showing that the armour value is used.

  27. #117
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I'm pretty sure, that there is not a table Lusted mentioned. I got exactly the same values, when i changed upgrade levels from 0,1,2,3 to 7,8,9,10
    so it looks that we have an secret bonus for Bronze, Silver, Gold upgrade, no mather upgrade level...
    Last edited by JaM; 02-21-2007 at 13:10.

  28. #118
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I'm pretty sure, that there is not a table Lusted mentioned. I got exactly the same values, when i changed upgrade levels from 0,1,2,3 to 7,8,9,10
    so it looks that we have an secret bonus for Bronze, Silver, Gold upgrade, no mather upgrade level...
    Well if you also do the test im going to be doing we can show whether there is a table or not.

  29. #119
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    So an unit with base armour_ug_levels 4 and stat_armor 0 and one with base armour_ug_levels 5 and stat_armor 0 are identical?

    Can you please test it?

  30. #120
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I did it yesterday. And got exactly the same numbers, no mather the upgrade level. unit with silver armor had the sme resistance with armor level 2 and armor level 8 (default armor in EDU 0)

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