Armor Upgrades Work Properly

[JaM]

I will be able to do more tests later, have to lgo to work....

[Re Berengario I]

I did it yesterday. And got exactly the same numbers, no mather the upgrade level. unit with silver armor had the sme resistance with armor level 2 and armor level 8 (default armor in EDU 0)

Do it with both units with stat_armor 1 then.

[Lusted]

I did it yesterday. And got exactly the same numbers, no mather the upgrade level. unit with silver armor had the sme resistance with armor level 2 and armor level 8 (default armor in EDU 0)

No, just do the test i suggested earlier. You have a modified EDU, please do it with an unmodified one.

So an unit with base armour_ug_levels 4 and stat_armor 0 and one with base armour_ug_levels 5 and stat_armor 0 are identical?

Can you please test it?

Sure thing once i've done the other tests.

[Lusted]

Okay i've only done 1 test buts it's pretty conclusive. I gave Dismounted Italian Men At Arms armor value of 0 but with armour level 4. After 1 test battle they ended up with 6 men left, about the same result i got when testing unupgraded billmen who have armour value of 0 and armour level 0. So armour value does work properly.

[Re Berengario I]

Okay i've only done 1 test buts it's pretty conclusive. I gave Dismounted Italian Men At Arms armor value of 0 but with armour level 4. After 1 test battle they ended up with 6 men left, about the same result i got when testing unupgraded billmen who have armour value of 0 and armour level 0. So armour value does work properly.

Then armour level is not an additive value as it seemed by previous posts, that's why I asked to do a test with an armor value of 1 to check if it's a multiply factor.

[Lusted]

Then armour level is not an additive value as it seemed by previous posts, that's why I asked to do a test with an armor value of 1 to check if it's a multiply factor.

It must be an additive value and not a multiplier as billmen who start with armor 0, end up hsuffering the same casualties as Berdiche Axemen(armour 5) when upgraded to silver armor. As their is no armor value to multiply it must be an added value.

And none of the units in the test i did with Dismounted MAA had armour upgrades.

[Re Berengario I]

How can be additive if you said that MAA with 0 armour value and 4 armour level behaved similarly to billmen with 0 armour value and 0 armour level?

[Lusted]

Because im referring to the armour levels like this:

Level 0: Flesh
Level 1: Padded/leather
Level 2: Light Mail
Level 3: Heavy Mail
Level 4: Partial Plate
Level 5: Full Plate
Level 6: Advanced Plate

If the armour upgrade wasn't an additive value, then every unit with 0 armor wouldn't see any benefits from armour upgrades if they were a multiplier effect.

The armour values for each level appear to be:

Level 0: Flesh - 0
Level 1: Padded/leather - 3/4
Level 2: Light Mail - 5
Level 3: Heavy Mail - 7
Level 4: Partial Plate - 8/9
Level 5: Full Plate -9/10
Level 6: Advanced Plate - 10/11

Now each level must add a certain amount onto armour to be effective. So a unit which starts armour level 0, and 0 armour, and which then upgrades to level 1 armour must get a value of about 3/4 added onto their armour value. The different armour levels are sued in the edu to create the armour system used in M2Tw.

[Re Berengario I]

Then MAA with armour level of 4 and armour stat of 0 should have effective armor of 8/9 while Billmen with 0 armour stat and 0 armour level should have effective armour of 0.

[Lusted]

Then MAA with armour level of 4 and armour stat of 0 should have effective armor of 8/9 while Billmen with 0 armour stat and 0 armour level should have effective armour of 0.

No, becuse all units armour level 4 have an armour value set to 8/9 in the edu. The armour level alone does not set the armour value for a unit, CA have worked out a system of armour values for each armour level, and given those to each unit with each armour level in the edu. Then the upgrades add a certain amount to the armour value to bring the armour value up to that of the next armour level.

[JaM]

Because im referring to the armour levels like this:

Level 0: Flesh
Level 1: Padded/leather
Level 2: Light Mail
Level 3: Heavy Mail
Level 4: Partial Plate
Level 5: Full Plate
Level 6: Advanced Plate

If the armour upgrade wasn't an additive value, then every unit with 0 armor wouldn't see any benefits from armour upgrades if they were a multiplier effect.

The armour values for each level appear to be:

Level 0: Flesh - 0
Level 1: Padded/leather - 3/4
Level 2: Light Mail - 5
Level 3: Heavy Mail - 7
Level 4: Partial Plate - 8/9
Level 5: Full Plate -9/10
Level 6: Advanced Plate - 10/11

Now each level must add a certain amount onto armour to be effective. So a unit which starts armour level 0, and 0 armour, and which then upgrades to level 1 armour must get a value of about 3/4 added onto their armour value. The different armour levels are sued in the edu to create the armour system used in M2Tw.

Lusted, Point IS that when i used levels 7,8,9,10 (Point Blank EDU With added levels) i got same results as with 0,1,2,3. Looses were in the same region for bronze (43 average) Silver (34 average) Gold (22 average) upgrade.

To me it looks, that upgrade to bronze add % bonus from max armor value, so do the silver and Gold. I suggest to use extreme values because with those you can see the difference better

[Lusted]

Lusted, Point IS that when i used levels 7,8,9,10 (Point Blank EDU With added levels) i got same results as with 0,1,2,3. Looses were in the same region for bronze (43 average) Silver (34 average) Gold (22 average) upgrade.

I am using an unmodified edu to see if it works correctly in that, i am not testing with new levels because i want to see what the existing levels provide.

[JaM]

I'm just pointing out, that it looks it is not hardcoded for levels 1,2,3,4,5,6 because during my tests i got exactly same results using levels 7,8,9,10,11,12 which are not in Vanila game!
So if there isnt a table that makes upgrade 1=3or4, upgrade 2 5/6 etc, that means upgrade itself provide a bonus that is counting differently regarding base value.

My theory is: You can have upgrade 5 as a base, then upgrade unit to 6, but if your base armor was 0, you will still got just the same bonus as if your armor upgrade level was 0 upgraded to level 1

[Lusted]

If your base armour is 0 you would only get a small armour upgrade bonus. I am not saying each armour level replaces the armour value with the ones i listed, im saying those are the values given for those armour levels based on the units that have them in the edu. So upgrading from level 1 to level 2 armour should only give a bonus of 1. Whilst upgrading from level 0 to level 1 should give a bonus of 4.

New armour levels will probably revert to a default value for armour upgrades.

[Re Berengario I]

No, becuse all units armour level 4 have an armour value set to 8/9 in the edu. The armour level alone does not set the armour value for a unit, CA have worked out a system of armour values for each armour level, and given those to each unit with each armour level in the edu. Then the upgrades add a certain amount to the armour value to bring the armour value up to that of the next armour level.

Ok, then we have a unit with armour state of 8 that because of that 8 in the EDU has also an armour level of 4, then upgrading the unit to armour level 5 the unit info will show 9 armour but the effective armour would range between 9 and 10.

And on top of this an unit with armour stat 11 still get damage from archers with 1 attack power.

Nice

[Point_Blank]

Its reasonable that attack 1 should have a chance of damaging an armor level 11 target, through low-percentage shots like through the visor etc, it should just be a very very low chance.

[JaM]

New armor levels gave me the same results as the old one.
Isnt the leather armor value 4? so with upgrade from level 0 to level 1 you should have protection equal to 4, right?

[JaM]

Its reasonable that attack 1 should have a chance of damaging an armor level 11 target, through low-percentage shots like through the visor etc, it should just be a very very low chance.

Point Blank, in my tests peasants with base armor 12 tok looses from missile fire (Arrow damage 1) After 6 salvos looses were 11,14,12,19,13 .... thats quite a lot, not just a small chance... to me it looks that it is possible to kill somebody with full gothic armor by a dart or what?

Just imagine: you have 150 Gothic Foot Knights advancing aginst 120 peasants bowmens with weakest arrows possible. they will shoot at you 6x120 (720 arrows, just maybe 1/3 hits anything...) arrows and 14 knights would die? Thats almost 10% effectivity...

In my test i used even original Dismounted Gothic Knights, but they have much wider formation than peasant formation, so they didnt take so many hits peasants did.

[Re Berengario I]

From what I understood not.

With stat_armor 0 and armour_ug_levels 0 you just need to upgrade to armour_ug_levels 1 to have something comparable to stat_armor 4.

I know it doesn't make any logical sense but this is what people has tested to be truth and I cannot argue against different trusted witnesses.

And I still think that because of it balancing units is not hard, is completely unuseful in a "system" (I'd call anarchy) like this.

[Point_Blank]

New armor levels gave me the same results as the old one.
Isnt the leather armor value 4? so with upgrade from level 0 to level 1 you should have protection equal to 4, right?

I think that's what is being suggested, but I am through making assumptions about how things work in this game.

[JaM]

From what I understood not.

With stat_armor 0 and armour_ug_levels 0 you just need to upgrade to armour_ug_levels 1 to have something comparable to stat_armor 4.

I know it doesn't make any logical sense but this is what people has tested to be truth and I cannot argue against different trusted witnesses.

And I still think that because of it balancing units is not hard, is completely unuseful in a "system" (I'd call anarchy) like this.

Fun part is, that you will get same bonus if your upgrade will be stat_armor 0 and armour_ug_levels 5 upgrade to armour_ug_levels 6

or

stat_armor 0 and armour_ug_levels 7 upgrade to armour_ug_levels 8 etc...

[Point_Blank]

Point Blank, in my tests peasants with base armor 12 tok looses from missile fire (Arrow damage 1) After 6 salvos looses were 11,14,12,19,13 .... thats quite a lot, not just a small chance... to me it looks that it is possible to kill somebody with full gothic armor by a dart or what?

Just imagine: you have 150 Gothic Foot Knights advancing aginst 120 peasants bowmens with weakest arrows possible. they will shoot at you 6x120 (720 arrows, just maybe 1/3 hits anything...) arrows and 14 knights would die? Thats almost 10% effectivity...

In my test i used even original Dismounted Gothic Knights, but they have much wider formation than peasant formation, so they didnt take so many hits peasants did.

Well that is clearly too high, but as it all looks quite hard-coded and we only really have 11 armor levels to play with, we are probably stuck with it, unless we can use the values Darth found to give extra resistance to high armor levels - that would be a decent work-around, but I am not yet convinced about what he has found.

But look at it this way, 120 bowmen fire 10 shots each = 1200 arrows, causing 12-15 casualties - thats casualties, not necessarily kills, which isn't determined until the end of the battle. So 1 arrow in 100 is causing a casualty who is unable to continue the fight, of which maybe 60% will be counted as kills. Maybe not so far off.

[JaM]

Unit upgraded to armor 12 (using Point Blank upgrades, not vanila ones - armour_ug_levels 9, 10, 11, 12) is toughter than unit with base armor 12.

those upgrade levels are not coded by CA, so that formula for upgrades 1,2,3,4,5,6 should not apply to them,right? But It does...

[JaM]

Well that is clearly too high, but as it all looks quite hard-coded and we only really have 11 armor levels to play with, we are probably stuck with it, unless we can use the values Darth found to give extra resistance to high armor levels - that would be a decent work-around, but I am not yet convinced about what he has found.

But look at it this way, 120 bowmen fire 10 shots each = 1200 arrows, causing 12-15 casualties - thats casualties, not necessarily kills, which isn't determined until the end of the battle. So 1 arrow in 100 is causing a casualty who is unable to continue the fight, of which maybe 60% will be counted as kills. Maybe not so far off.

They fired only 6 salvos, i counted it and then ended battle imediatelly. repeated 5 times

[Carl]

Point Blank, in my tests peasants with base armor 12 tok looses from missile fire (Arrow damage 1) After 6 salvos looses were 11,14,12,19,13 .... thats quite a lot, not just a small chance... to me it looks that it is possible to kill somebody with full gothic armor by a dart or what?

As I said, according to people in the know the chance of a kill does not drop to 0% unitl the targets defence is 65 or MORE points higher than the enemies attack, (or at least thats how it suposedly was in RTW, things i've seen in the files make me suspect this value has been reduced, but i belive it's still over 40). By the same token, an attack that is 65 point higher than the enemies defence has a 100% kill rate.

[Carl]

Unit upgraded to armor 12 (using Point Blank upgrades, not vanila ones - armour_ug_levels 9, 10, 11, 12) is toughter than unit with base armor 12.

those upgrade levels are not coded by CA, so that formula for upgrades 1,2,3,4,5,6 should not apply to them,right? But It does...

I suspect that this is because the game probably sets things up so that a unit going from level 0 to the max klevel will gain +11 armour. so if you double the number of levels, the amount you get per level is reduced. How it the deals with having each level give a diffrent amount of armour I don't know.

[Point_Blank]

Look at the armor levels here in terms of what I was talking about in RC, joules of force etc. We now (semi-apparently) have the following:
Armor Value Joules to Penetrate
Leather 3/4 60
Light Mail 5 100
Heavy Mail 7 140
Partial Plate 8/9 180
Full Plate 9/10 200
Advanced 10/11 220

or about 20J/armor value. This would pre-suppose a thicker jack under the armors than I did previously, and its a bit light on the plate armors, but its not too far off. And if you are basing things on this kind of data then the first upgrade from no armor to leather should bump your armor value to 3/4.

[JaM]

Look at the armor levels here in terms of what I was talking about in RC, joules of force etc. We now (semi-apparently) have the following:
Armor Value Joules to Penetrate
Leather 3/4 60
Light Mail 5 100
Heavy Mail 7 140
Partial Plate 8/9 180
Full Plate 9/10 200
Advanced 10/11 220

or about 20J/armor value. This would pre-suppose a thicker jack under the armors than I did previously, and its a bit light on the plate armors, but its not too far off. And if you are basing things on this kind of data then the first upgrade from no armor to leather should bump your armor value to 3/4.

Just an therory: What if armor upgrade adds 25% frm max armor value used(12)?

So upgrade 1 means 25% from 12 - value 3
upgrade 2 means 3+3 = 6
upgrade 3 3+3+3 = 9

I'm not able to test it now (due to work...) Can somebody look into this?

[Point_Blank]

So in this new, uh 'vanilla' system, if I have a unit with stat armor 8 upgrade level 4, and I upgrade it to level 5, then it goes up to armor 9 or 10 right, not 11/12? It doesn't get 3/4 because its the first upgrade for that unit right? The game is smart enough to know that upgrading from upgrade level 4 to upgrade level 5 means just 1 or 2 additional armor?

[Point_Blank]

Just an therory: What if armor upgrade adds 25% frm max armor value used(12)?

So upgrade 1 means 25% from 12 - value 3
upgrade 2 means 3+3 = 6
upgrade 3 3+3+3 = 9

I'm not able to test it now (due to work...) Can somebody look into this?

Let us hope not, because that would lead to horrible results like units that upgrade 0, 1, 2, 3 having 12 armor at upgrade 3.