Armor Upgrades Work Properly

[JaM]

Let us hope not, because that would lead to horrible results like units that upgrade 0, 1, 2, 3 having 12 armor at upgrade 3.

9 actually.

[Point_Blank]

9 actually.

Its still horrible.

[JaM]

Its just a theory that needs to be confirmed or not. I'm not able to test it now. I will test it in 6-7 hours...

[Lusted]

Originally Posted by Point_Blank
Let us hope not, because that would lead to horrible results like units that upgrade 0, 1, 2, 3 having 12 armor at upgrade 3.

Actually they would have 7 from my results, as that is what level 3 appears to correspond to.

[Point_Blank]

Been reading back in the thread again, results like the following by Lusted look clear that the vanilla system is working OK:

Billmen:
Flesh(0) 3 8 4 6 4 Average 5
Leather/Padded(4) 22 14 15 18 26 Average 19
Light Mail(5) 34 28 41 38 36 Average 35.4

Berdiche Axemen:
Light Mail(5) 40 37 33 30 34 Average 34.8
Heavy Mail(7) 62 60 55 58 59 Average 58.8
Partial Plate(9) 74 81 85 76 79 Average 79

Heavy Billmen
Heavy Mail(7) 59 64 63 56 54 Average 59.2
Partial Plate(9) 82 78 82 85 79 Average 81.2

[Lusted]

Been reading back in the thread again, results like the following by Lusted look clear that the vanilla system is working OK:

Im doing some more testing atm, trying to see if every armour level works correctly.

[JaM]

Problem is that only vanila system will work, no modding possible to that system... thats not what they told us M2TW will be. (easily modable? dont think so anymore...)

[Lusted]

Problem is that only vanila system will work, no modding possible to that system... thats not what they told us M2TW will be. (easily modable? dont think so anymore...)

Take M2Tw are compare it to almost every other game that is ou tthere. Most are nowhere near as moddable as M2Tw is. Whilst we cannot mod the source code, we can mod a hell of a lot through text files, and more than with RTW. So yes, M2TW is easily moddable as most of it is done through text files, and most text fiels are not that difficult to understand. We do have limits to what we can do though.

[Re Berengario I]

I'm not negative biased about the moddability of the game, but I think that some definitive CA words on how combat calculations are handled is necessary for people who want to have a go at different kind of units.

Right now it's all based on raw testing, buts and ifs...

Edit: but a better scripting parser is so much needed... we need variables!

[Point_Blank]

Problem is that only vanila system will work, no modding possible to that system... thats not what they told us M2TW will be. (easily modable? dont think so anymore...)

Well vanilla system, if it actually works, isn't so bad. Would have been nice to have a greater range of armor values, but it certainly workable as is.

[JaM]

Take M2Tw are compare it to almost every other game that is ou tthere. Most are nowhere near as moddable as M2Tw is. Whilst we cannot mod the source code, we can mod a hell of a lot through text files, and more than with RTW. So yes, M2TW is easily moddable as most of it is done through text files, and most text fiels are not that difficult to understand. We do have limits to what we can do though.

Not to me. Even in RTW we were able to change unit armor, to balance it better than in vanila game. Right now it is not possible anymore, because original values are presented as the only right ones... other point of view is not allowed anymore...

[Lusted]

Not to me. Even in RTW we were able to change unit armor, to balance it better than in vanila game. Right now it is not possible anymore, because original values are presented as the only right ones... other pint of wiev is not allowed

We can change unit armour in M2TW as well, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that. People just now need to take into account the new armour upgrade system.

[JaM]

....new armor upgrade system, that works completely diferent that it shows in game... nice

[SMZ]

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

Thank you.

[econ21]

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Agreed - discussion of the implications for modding should be in the mod chat forum.

This is what I have put in the FAQ to summarise the results of this thread:

Q: Are armour upgrades worth it? They only give +1 armour.

A: The +1 armour effect of each upgrade appears to be misreporting by the game. Testing by SMZ, Carl, Lusted and Foz implies that armour upgrades work as expected, in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc). The upgraded armour stat does not appear to be correctly reported, but the unit is still as resistant to missile fire as you would expect from a unit with that type of armour. Here is Lusted's summary of what armour stat corresponds (roughly) to each armour type:

Level 0: Flesh - 0
Level 1: Padded/leather - 3/4
Level 2: Light Mail - 5
Level 3: Heavy Mail - 7
Level 4: Partial Plate - 8/9
Level 5: Full Plate -9/10
Level 6: Advanced Plate - 10/11

The implication is that the lowest type of armoury is a great bargain - raising the armour stat of your initially unarmoured troops by around 3-4 points.

Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.

[gardibolt]

That's what I understand from my reading of this thread, econ, but you'll obviously want confirmation from the principals.

Excellent work, all, on getting to the bottom of this mystery. I think I'm going to build leather tanners in every city and castle....

[JaM]

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

Thank you.

If you will stick to the original files you can came with incorect conclusions. The only possible way how to figure out how system works is to use extreme numbers to find out the changes in behavior in comparation to normal situation.

[Carl]

@JaM: We havn't got that far in the testing because qwhere STILL trying to fully understand how the basic system works, without that all those extreme number examples are usl;ess as we don't know how extreme numbers vary from normal behaviour.

[JaM]

My latest tests:

Another bunch ot tests: Same units like yesterday - Peasant archers - arrow damage 1 vs modified peasants

type Peasants
dictionary Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Peasants, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 1, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 50, 0.6
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 1, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 1, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay -20000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 120, 70, 65, 50, 120, 4, 20
armour_ug_levels 0, 4, 5, 6
armour_ug_models Peasants, Peasants_ug1
ownership england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, slave, normans, saxons
era 0 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
era 1 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
era 2 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons



Results:

Upgrade 4 looses: 46,44,43,40,35 - 42 average
Upgrade 5 looses: 35,32,31,28,25 - 30 average
Upgrade 6 looses: 22,19,18,18,14 - 18 average

From my previous tests: same units different upgrade levels:
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3
Upgrade 0 looses: 58,45,39,51,48 - 48 average
Upgrade 1 looses: 46,48,36,46,39 - 43 average
Upgrade 2 looses: 34,33,29,35,33 - 33 average
Upgrade 3 looses: 23,22,26,18,25 - 23 average

[JaM]

So to me, it looks that unit resistance is linked together with armour_ug_models somehow. I tried even PB levels 7,8,9,10,11,12 but with similar results.

[Re Berengario I]

This is because upgrades are considered to be applied in a progressive way, you can't jump from none to plate. This is the obvious outcome of your testing. The game takes the base armor_stat, then applies the number of the upgrades in armour_ug_levels, probably it doesn't even read the values, just the count of them.

[JaM]

This is because upgrades are considered to be applied in a progressive way, you can't jump from none to plate. This is the obvious outcome of your testing. The game takes the base armor_stat, then applies the number of the upgrades in armour_ug_levels, probably it doesn't even read the values, just the count of them.

No Re: My first tests were with vanila upgrade levels 0,1,2,3, after that i changed it to 0,4,5,6 and i had same averages as before

[Re Berengario I]

It what I said, regardless if you write 0,1,2,3 or 0,4,5,6 or 0,10,20,30 the game reads the base armor_stat and then applies 4 upgrades, discarding the values, it just uses the count of them (4 or 3 or 2 or 1 or none upgrade)

[SMZ]

Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.

That summary seems right on target with my understanding, and the results so far. Just saw one typo:

"in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc)."

should be:

"in that each upgrade provides the reported type of armour (padded, light mail etc)."

[JaM]

sorry Re but i dont understand how you ment that.

[SMZ]

and I don't think that can be it, because pikemen go straight from flesh to light mail

[Foz]

This is because upgrades are considered to be applied in a progressive way, you can't jump from none to plate. This is the obvious outcome of your testing. The game takes the base armor_stat, then applies the number of the upgrades in armour_ug_levels, probably it doesn't even read the values, just the count of them.

It what I said, regardless if you write 0,1,2,3 or 0,4,5,6 or 0,10,20,30 the game reads the base armor_stat and then applies 4 upgrades, discarding the values, it just uses the count of them (4 or 3 or 2 or 1 or none upgrade)

If I'm reading Re correctly, then what he means is that in order for a 2nd 3rd and 4th entry of 4,5,6 to work correctly as upgrades, they must be preceded by the base level 3, and not 0. That is:

armour_ug_levels 3,4,5,6 tells us the unit starts off with level 3 armour. This gives the game its basis for where to begin in the chain of upgrades. From there, it will step forward, granting the next 3 upgrades as buildings 4, 5 and 6 are built.

armour_ug_levels 0,4,5,6 then is speculated to give you armour upgrades progressive up from zero: you'll receive the benefit of armour levels 1 (about +4), 2 (+1'ish) and 3(another +2'ish) as you upgrade the unit, resulting in 7 points of additional armour as it upgrades. The difference is, you'll be requiring the armour upgrade buildings #4, 5, and 6 to get those value of upgrades. Since the first number is the starting armour level, it would make a lot of programming sense to apply the upgrades linearly upward from that amount, and only make the following entries name the buildings to achieve those armour upgrades.

So if we envision the armour types to be a linear series of bonuses in given amounts, something like this:

lvl 1: +4
lvl 2: +1
lvl 3: +2
lvl 4: +2
lvl 5: +1
lvl 6: +1

then Re is saying that the first entry behind armour_ug_levels sets the point in that progression that the unit is assumed to be starting at, and the following (up to 3) entries allow you to set the required building(s), but will always give the next bonus amounts in the sequence, not the ones for whatever building level you've required to get the upgrade.

I'm not saying I agree with that, as I actually have not tested it AT ALL, I just felt that I understood what Re was trying to say, and wanted to explain in more detail for concerned parties who may not have understood. If I'm wrong, Re, let me know.

If he's right in his idea, though, then it's huge for modding, as you can achieve a ridiculous variety of upgrade patterns by starting at different places in the upgrade chain, using varying amounts of ug levels, and using repeated upgrade building levels as the 2-4 entries to trigger multiple bonuses from the same building. You could do armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 1, 1 and Re's explanation would mean this grants +7 to that unit, all from the first armoury building!

Edit--@Econ21: I forgot to mention it as I got tied up trying to explain Re... but yes, your understanding of the various findings appears to be completely correct. Thanks for adding it to the FAQ

[Re Berengario I]

and I don't think that can be it, because pikemen go straight from flesh to light mail

With the same behaviour in combat as they'd have light mail in armor_stat (alas a value of 5)?

I'm at a loss then because there's a contradiction with the data Jam showed up.

Foz explained better than me what I intented and I don't know if it's true, I just trying to make sense out of some contradictory data (which doesn't seem false or badly recorded).

I need to run some tests by myself, the weekend isn't very far away

[Point_Blank]

With the same behaviour in combat as they'd have light mail in armor_stat (alas a value of 5)?

I'm at a loss then because there's a contradiction with the data Jam showed up.

Foz explained better than me what I intented and I don't know if it's true, I just trying to make sense out of some contradictory data (which doesn't seem false or badly recorded).

I need to run some tests by myself, the weekend isn't very far away

Looking at JaM's tests, I would suspect that when you upgrade pikemen at the blacksmith, since its the first upgrade they would get +4 armor, whereas they should really have 5 since they are wearing light mail.

[Point_Blank]

And here is another thing to consider: how is the shield fix interacting with this system? Its being said that the game somehow uses the armor value internally (eg in the case of advanced plate being 9 or 10, partial plate being 8 or 9). If that is the case, the shield fix is likely altering this since it changes the armor value.