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  1. #1

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    the file is full of inconsistent numbers... i don't know if it was meant to be like that or not, but in my own - I standarized the armour numbers and made up the differences in the defense skill numbers

    since these armour upgrades aren't modifiable however, we are able to figure out what the numbers are supposed to be for the natural armour scores
    Drink water.

  2. #2
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    That makes all attempts to balance units totally imposible, because whole system is hardcoded that only official EDU will work.
    No it just means you have to take into account the armour upgrade system
    when balancing units.

    And im guessing you didn't mod RTW, because the armour upgrades/weapon upgrades weren't modifiable in it either, but a lot of other things hardcoded in RTW have been opened up for us in M2TW.

    Im thinking of doing more tests to work out exactly what armour value each armour level gives. If other people want to help me here is what im testing.

    All battles done in an unmodified M2TW, map spanish plains, midday, clear weather VH difficulty.

    All battles versus Frech peasant archers.

    Units to test, testing each one 5 times unpugraded, and 5 times on each of its upgrade levels.:

    Billmen: Base armour 0. Armour levels: Flesh, Padded/Leather, Light Mail
    Croat Axemen: Base armour 4. Armour levels: Padded/Leather, Light Mail
    Berdiche Axemen: Base Armour 5. Armour Levels: Light Mail, Hevy Mail, Partial Plate
    Heavy Billmen: Base Armour 7. Armour Levels: Heavy Mail, Partial Plate
    Heavy Pike Militia(with spearwall and guard mode OFF): Base Armour 8. Armour Levels: Partial Plate, Full Plate
    Dismounted Gothic Knights: Base Armour 10.

    I cannot find any units with armour levels 5, 6 without a shield, so i cannot really test that. And i cannot find any units with armour level 5 and without a shield.

  3. #3
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by SMZ
    the file is full of inconsistent numbers...
    That's exactly the problem and the point I was trying to bring to general (and hopefully CA's) attention.

    I'm not arguing that their combat system is bad or good, I just wanted to know if it is consistent.

    If SMZ and Foz are right about their findings then the first armor upgrade counts like 4 armor, the next one 1 or 2, the second 1, the third... etc

    All in all it doesn't make any sense and if it works this way balancing units would be a nightmare.

    I am starting to suspect that the basic value for armor is hidden from us and it's linked to the "quality" of the armor (none, leather, chain, etc...) and that the armor value in EDU is just needed to fine tuning units inside the same armor category. This would also explain why peasants tested with native 4 armor are a lot less resilient than peasants with 0 native armor and 3 armor upgrade.

  4. #4
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    This would also explain why peasants tested with native 4 armor are a lot less resilient than peasants with 0 native armor and 3 armor upgrade.
    Well yes because if armour upgrades work correctly like the tests are showing, then armour upgrade 3 peasants have 7 defense, not 4.
    If SMZ and Foz are right about their findings then the first armor upgrade counts like 4 armor, the next one 1 or 2, the second 1, the third... etc

    All in all it doesn't make any sense and if it works this way balancing units would be a nightmare.
    But it does make sense, these values help to distinquish between the different armour types, and tie into the new armour upgrade system in M2TW.

    And i am guessing like you that the variances in basic armour stats allow for variety within the various armour levels.

  5. #5
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted
    And i am guessing like you that the variances in basic armour stats allow for variety within the various armour levels.
    It's the only possibility for the system to have a logic and that's also explain the unit info bug. Actually they didn't use 2 different formulas, simply put who wrote the unit info code made an addition of two different variables which weren't supposed to be added (and aren't added anywhere else in the combat code).

  6. #6
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    It's the only possibility for the system to have a logic and that's also explain the unit info bug. Actually they didn't use 2 different formulas, simply put who wrote the unit info code made an addition of two different variables which weren't supposed to be added (and aren't added anywhere else in the combat code).
    Or they didn't update the code that linked the unit info to the new armour upgrade system, so it still uses the RTW code that shows +1 for every armour upgrade.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Well we are a lot better off than yesterday, now we have a clearer picture of how things work and can proceed from there.

  8. #8
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Unfortunately I am at work but if anyone can, please do this little test.

    Get pesants and while mantaining stat_armor of 0 give them an armour_ug_levels of 4 and test them together with Dismounted Noble Knights (which are shieldless and with a base armour_ug_levels of 4 too but stat_armor of 8).

    If the outcome will show little difference than we'll know that the real armor stat is the armour_ug_levels (which defines the different kind of armour) while stat_armor is just a rebalancing inside the same level.

  9. #9
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Well didn't Carl or SMZ earlier in this thread do a test of giving pike militia armour 0 upgrade 3, and then armour 7 and got the same results, showing that the armour value is used.

  10. #10
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I'm pretty sure, that there is not a table Lusted mentioned. I got exactly the same values, when i changed upgrade levels from 0,1,2,3 to 7,8,9,10
    so it looks that we have an secret bonus for Bronze, Silver, Gold upgrade, no mather upgrade level...
    Last edited by JaM; 02-21-2007 at 13:10.

  11. #11
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    I'm pretty sure, that there is not a table Lusted mentioned. I got exactly the same values, when i changed upgrade levels from 0,1,2,3 to 7,8,9,10
    so it looks that we have an secret bonus for Bronze, Silver, Gold upgrade, no mather upgrade level...
    Well if you also do the test im going to be doing we can show whether there is a table or not.

  12. #12
    Member Member Re Berengario I's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    So an unit with base armour_ug_levels 4 and stat_armor 0 and one with base armour_ug_levels 5 and stat_armor 0 are identical?

    Can you please test it?

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