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  1. #1
    blaaaaaaaaaarg! Senior Member Lusted's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Not to me. Even in RTW we were able to change unit armor, to balance it better than in vanila game. Right now it is not possible anymore, because original values are presented as the only right ones... other pint of wiev is not allowed
    We can change unit armour in M2TW as well, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that. People just now need to take into account the new armour upgrade system.

  2. #2
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    ....new armor upgrade system, that works completely diferent that it shows in game... nice

  3. #3

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

    Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

    Thank you.
    Drink water.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by SMZ
    Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.
    Agreed - discussion of the implications for modding should be in the mod chat forum.

    This is what I have put in the FAQ to summarise the results of this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by FAQ
    Q: Are armour upgrades worth it? They only give +1 armour.

    A: The +1 armour effect of each upgrade appears to be misreporting by the game. Testing by SMZ, Carl, Lusted and Foz implies that armour upgrades work as expected, in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc). The upgraded armour stat does not appear to be correctly reported, but the unit is still as resistant to missile fire as you would expect from a unit with that type of armour. Here is Lusted's summary of what armour stat corresponds (roughly) to each armour type:

    Level 0: Flesh - 0
    Level 1: Padded/leather - 3/4
    Level 2: Light Mail - 5
    Level 3: Heavy Mail - 7
    Level 4: Partial Plate - 8/9
    Level 5: Full Plate -9/10
    Level 6: Advanced Plate - 10/11

    The implication is that the lowest type of armoury is a great bargain - raising the armour stat of your initially unarmoured troops by around 3-4 points.
    Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.
    Last edited by econ21; 02-21-2007 at 22:30.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    That's what I understand from my reading of this thread, econ, but you'll obviously want confirmation from the principals.

    Excellent work, all, on getting to the bottom of this mystery. I think I'm going to build leather tanners in every city and castle....

  6. #6

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21
    Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.
    That summary seems right on target with my understanding, and the results so far. Just saw one typo:

    "in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc)."

    should be:

    "in that each upgrade provides the reported type of armour (padded, light mail etc)."
    Drink water.

  7. #7
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    sorry Re but i dont understand how you ment that.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    and I don't think that can be it, because pikemen go straight from flesh to light mail
    Drink water.

  9. #9
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    Quote Originally Posted by SMZ
    Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

    Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

    Thank you.
    If you will stick to the original files you can came with incorect conclusions. The only possible way how to figure out how system works is to use extreme numbers to find out the changes in behavior in comparation to normal situation.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member Carl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    @JaM: We havn't got that far in the testing because qwhere STILL trying to fully understand how the basic system works, without that all those extreme number examples are usl;ess as we don't know how extreme numbers vary from normal behaviour.
    Find my ProblemFixer Purehere.

    This ProblemFixer fixes the following: 2-Hander bug, Pike Bug, Shield Bug, Chasing Routers, Cav not Charging, Formation Keeping Improved, Trait Bugs, and Ancillary Bugs.

    BETA Testers needed for the current version of RebuildProblemFixer. Thread here

  11. #11
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    My latest tests:

    Another bunch ot tests: Same units like yesterday - Peasant archers - arrow damage 1 vs modified peasants

    type Peasants
    dictionary Peasants ; Peasants
    category infantry
    class light
    voice_type Light
    banner faction main_infantry
    banner holy crusade
    soldier Peasants, 60, 0, 0.8
    attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant
    formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
    stat_health 1, 0
    stat_pri 1, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 50, 0.6
    stat_pri_attr no
    stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
    stat_sec_attr no
    stat_pri_armour 0, 1, 0, metal
    stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
    stat_heat 2
    stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
    stat_mental 1, low, untrained
    stat_charge_dist 30
    stat_fire_delay -20000
    stat_food 60, 300
    stat_cost 1, 120, 70, 65, 50, 120, 4, 20
    armour_ug_levels 0, 4, 5, 6
    armour_ug_models Peasants, Peasants_ug1
    ownership england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, slave, normans, saxons
    era 0 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
    era 1 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
    era 2 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons



    Results:

    Upgrade 4 looses: 46,44,43,40,35 - 42 average
    Upgrade 5 looses: 35,32,31,28,25 - 30 average
    Upgrade 6 looses: 22,19,18,18,14 - 18 average

    From my previous tests: same units different upgrade levels:
    armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3
    Upgrade 0 looses: 58,45,39,51,48 - 48 average
    Upgrade 1 looses: 46,48,36,46,39 - 43 average
    Upgrade 2 looses: 34,33,29,35,33 - 33 average
    Upgrade 3 looses: 23,22,26,18,25 - 23 average
    Last edited by JaM; 02-22-2007 at 00:17.

  12. #12
    Member Member JaM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Armor Upgrades Work Properly

    So to me, it looks that unit resistance is linked together with armour_ug_models somehow. I tried even PB levels 7,8,9,10,11,12 but with similar results.

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