Armor Upgrades Work Properly

**Lusted** · 02-21-2007, 17:33

Not to me. Even in RTW we were able to change unit armor, to balance it better than in vanila game. Right now it is not possible anymore, because original values are presented as the only right ones... other pint of wiev is not allowed

We can change unit armour in M2TW as well, there is nothing stopping anyone from doing that. People just now need to take into account the new armour upgrade system.

**JaM** · 02-21-2007, 17:34

....new armor upgrade system, that works completely diferent that it shows in game... nice

**SMZ** · 02-21-2007, 21:50

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

Thank you.

**econ21** · 02-21-2007, 22:04

Originally Posted by SMZ

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Agreed - discussion of the implications for modding should be in the mod chat forum.

This is what I have put in the FAQ to summarise the results of this thread:

Originally Posted by FAQ

Q: Are armour upgrades worth it? They only give +1 armour.

A: The +1 armour effect of each upgrade appears to be misreporting by the game. Testing by SMZ, Carl, Lusted and Foz implies that armour upgrades work as expected, in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc). The upgraded armour stat does not appear to be correctly reported, but the unit is still as resistant to missile fire as you would expect from a unit with that type of armour. Here is Lusted's summary of what armour stat corresponds (roughly) to each armour type:

Level 0: Flesh - 0
Level 1: Padded/leather - 3/4
Level 2: Light Mail - 5
Level 3: Heavy Mail - 7
Level 4: Partial Plate - 8/9
Level 5: Full Plate -9/10
Level 6: Advanced Plate - 10/11

The implication is that the lowest type of armoury is a great bargain - raising the armour stat of your initially unarmoured troops by around 3-4 points.

Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.

**gardibolt** · 02-21-2007, 23:02

That's what I understand from my reading of this thread, econ, but you'll obviously want confirmation from the principals.

Excellent work, all, on getting to the bottom of this mystery. I think I'm going to build leather tanners in every city and castle....

**SMZ** · 02-22-2007, 01:07

Originally Posted by econ21

Have I understood the basic result correctly? If so, I am very pleased with the way upgrades work.

That summary seems right on target with my understanding, and the results so far. Just saw one typo:

"in that each upgrade provides the reported type of leather (padded, light mail etc)."

should be:

"in that each upgrade provides the reported type of armour (padded, light mail etc)."

**JaM** · 02-22-2007, 01:54

sorry Re but i dont understand how you ment that.

**SMZ** · 02-22-2007, 02:45

and I don't think that can be it, because pikemen go straight from flesh to light mail

**JaM** · 02-21-2007, 23:19

Originally Posted by SMZ

Can I please, with all due respect, request that we keep this discussion to figuring out what is going on IN THE VANILLA GAME.

Anybody who has significant modwork done which changes the nature of their game is just confusing the research being done. How about, AFTER, we figure out how the vanilla system works, THEN we can start babbling about how to modify it and how it works with modified systems. If you just really want to discuss these things, please make your own thread for it - because all you're accomplishing now is confusing the clear transfer of information on this subject to anybody trying to read this thread.

Thank you.

If you will stick to the original files you can came with incorect conclusions. The only possible way how to figure out how system works is to use extreme numbers to find out the changes in behavior in comparation to normal situation.

**Carl** · 02-21-2007, 23:35

@JaM: We havn't got that far in the testing because qwhere STILL trying to fully understand how the basic system works, without that all those extreme number examples are usl;ess as we don't know how extreme numbers vary from normal behaviour.

**JaM** · 02-21-2007, 23:55

My latest tests:

Another bunch ot tests: Same units like yesterday - Peasant archers - arrow damage 1 vs modified peasants

type Peasants
dictionary Peasants ; Peasants
category infantry
class light
voice_type Light
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Peasants, 60, 0, 0.8
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, is_peasant, peasant
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 6, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 1, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_simple, piercing, spear, 50, 0.6
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 0, 1, 0, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 2
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 1, low, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay -20000
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 120, 70, 65, 50, 120, 4, 20
armour_ug_levels 0, 4, 5, 6
armour_ug_models Peasants, Peasants_ug1
ownership england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, slave, normans, saxons
era 0 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
era 1 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons
era 2 england, france, hre, denmark, spain, portugal, milan, venice, papal_states, normans, saxons

Results:

Upgrade 4 looses: 46,44,43,40,35 - 42 average
Upgrade 5 looses: 35,32,31,28,25 - 30 average
Upgrade 6 looses: 22,19,18,18,14 - 18 average

From my previous tests: same units different upgrade levels:
armour_ug_levels 0, 1, 2, 3
Upgrade 0 looses: 58,45,39,51,48 - 48 average
Upgrade 1 looses: 46,48,36,46,39 - 43 average
Upgrade 2 looses: 34,33,29,35,33 - 33 average
Upgrade 3 looses: 23,22,26,18,25 - 23 average

**JaM** · 02-21-2007, 23:57

So to me, it looks that unit resistance is linked together with armour_ug_models somehow. I tried even PB levels 7,8,9,10,11,12 but with similar results.