Armor Upgrades Work Properly

[SMZ]

I don't know if this debate was already settled previously, but if not - I've just done some tests which confirm that the Armor Upgrades function properly, it is merely the numbering in the unit descriptions which is incorrect.

For those unfamiliar with the question at hand. Armour is in 7 levels.
Lvl 0 = Flesh, 0 defense
Lvl 1 = Leather/Padded, 4 defense
Lvl 2 = Light Mail/Chain, 6 defense
Lvl 3 = Heavy Mail/Breastplate, 7 defense
Lvl 4 = Partial Plate, 8 defense
Lvl 5 = Full Plate, 10 defense
Lvl 6 = Advanced Plate, 11 defense
Now, this means that when you upgrade the armour on a light unit - from say lvl 0 to lvl 1, you should notice a 4 point increase in defense. However, the ingame description will only show you a 1 point increase. Thus, the question becomes, is the proper armour value being used, and not reported correctly - or is the game using the value shown and causing units to not benefit fully from armor upgrades?

In all tests I used Normal unit size, Medium difficulty, a single unit of player controlled Desert Archers firing upon a unit of computer controlled Pikemen, and the Grassy Plains map. Nothing was clicked, I de-selected Skirmish mode before starting the battle, then allowed the archers to fire upon the pikemen until melee was reached, at which point I exited battle and recorded pikemen remaining...

Test 1: Desert Archers vs. unaltered Pike Militia (Defense vs Arrows: 0)

Battle I: 21, Battle II: 31, Battle III: 33, Battle IV: 30, Battle V: 22, Average: 27.4

Test 2: Desert Archers vs. gold armour upgrade Pike Militia (Defense vs Arrows Listed: 3, Proper Defense vs Arrows: 7)

Battle I: 41, Battle II: 48, Battle III: 50, Battle IV: 45, Battle V: 41, Average: 45

Difference: 17.6

Test 3: Desert Archers vs. unaltered Tercio Pikemen (Defense vs Arrows: 0)

Battle I: 24, Battle II: 22, Battle III: 21, Battle IV: 16, Battle V: 29, Average: 22.4

Test 4: Desert Archers vs. silver armour upgrade Tercio Pikemen (Defense vs Arrows Listed: 2, Proper Defense vs Arrows: 7)

Battle I: 40, Battle II: 46, Battle III: 49, Battle IV: 40, Battle V: 47, Average: 44.4

Difference: 22

Test 5: Desert Archers vs. unit file altered Pike Militia (Defense vs. Arrows: 3)

Battle I: 37, Battle II: 36, Battle III: 38, Battle IV: 37, Battle V: 28, Average: 35.2

Difference from Test 1: 7.8
Difference from Test 2: 9.8

Adding three points to the Pike Militia directly gave results in-between the unaltered Pike Militia and the upgraded Pike Militia. Clearly then, the upgrade raised the armour of the Pike Militia by 7 points, not 3. Also, it is plain that upgrading the Tercio Pikemen resulted in an additional 7 points of defense, not 2. Two points of defense is not sufficient to explain an average difference of 22 men in the time it takes a pike unit to close to melee.

The results are clear to me. If anyone disagrees, please do your own tests and post them.

FURTHER CONFIRMATION:

1 unit of pike militia (player) vs 1 unit of peasant archers (computer)

normal unit sizes. grassy plain, 3 sets of 10 tests. archer's ammo capacity reduced to 10. pike militia taken out of spear wall and defensive stance. clear weather for all tests.

Set 1, unmodified pike militia with 3 armor upgrades. (armor stats says 3, should be 7)

Men Remaining
test 1= 57, test 2= 50, test 3=52, test 4= 50, test 5=50, test 6=53, test 7=46, test 8=54, test 9=56, test 10=51.

average men remaining= 51.9

Set 2, modified pike militia with armor stat set to 8, no armor upgrades. (armor stat 8)

test 1=55, test 2=55, test 3=61, test 4=57, test 5=56, test 6=54, test 7=54, test 8=55, test 9=57, test 10=63

average men remaining= 56.7

a difference of 4.8

Set 3, modified pike militia with armor stat set to 3, no upgrades. (armor stat 3)

test 1=47, test 2=46, test 3=46, test 4=44, test 5=45, test 6=46, test 7=44, test 8=48, test 9=46, test 10=47

average men remaining 45.8

which is 6.1 men less than the unmodded upgraded pikemen.

clearly the upgraded pikemen are performing better than their stats reflect

Alright, I've set out to settle this stupid debate. In the first test, we have longbows vs italian militia modded to have 7 armour. The second will feature italian militia (copied a second time into the file w/ a tweaked name) modified to have 0 armour and given 3 armour upgrades, which the OP has speculated should confer them the same 7 armour the first unit has. Results follow.

7 armour unit losses:
35
36
36
31
30
---
168

3 upgrade, 0 armour unit losses:
27
36
35
35
34
---
167

As anyone can readily see, this result cannot in any way be explained if the armour upgrades only grant +1 each, as the unit stat sheet says they do. The units suffered practically identical losses, which is extremely strong evidence that the OPs assertion is the correct one: the armour upgrades function exactly as they are described by type (4 for leather, etc), and not as the stat sheet reports them as simple plus 1s for any given upgrade. As it turns out this makes the leather shop a ridiculously important upgrade since it adds a full +4 to all applicable units.

All battles Very Hard difficulty, Spanish plains at midday with clear weather. All done with unmodified M2Tw with me controlling the non-missile unit. All tests done v peasant archers.

Units tested were Billmen, Berdiche Axemen, Heavy Billmen.

They have the following armour levels:

Billmen:
Flesh(0)
Leather/Padded(4)
Light Mail(5)

Berdiche Axemen:
Light Mail(5)
Heavy Mail(7)
Partial Plate(9)

Heavy Billmen
Heavy Mail(7)
Partial Plate(9)

So there is an overlap between the different armour levels to see whether armour upgrades do give more than the +1 indicated on the unit card.

Test results(number is men remaining):


Billmen:
Flesh(0) 3 8 4 6 4 Average 5
Leather/Padded(4) 22 14 15 18 26 Average 19
Light Mail(5) 34 28 41 38 36 Average 35.4

Berdiche Axemen:
Light Mail(5) 40 37 33 30 34 Average 34.8
Heavy Mail(7) 62 60 55 58 59 Average 58.8
Partial Plate(9) 74 81 85 76 79 Average 79

Heavy Billmen
Heavy Mail(7) 59 64 63 56 54 Average 59.2
Partial Plate(9) 82 78 82 85 79 Average 81.2

So as you can see Berdiche Axemen unupgraded, and Billmen with level 2 upgrade have basically the same amount of men left, which is what should happen as both have the same armour level.

Same with Berdiche Axemen level 1 upgrade and Heavy Billmen, and Berdiche Axemen level 2 upgrade and Heavy Billmen level 1 upgrade.

So armour upgrades are working properly, just an incorrect value is shown on the unit cards.

Here some test results of mine. Firing unit was peasent archers, target was scots pike militia, with arrows modified to have 25% accurracy all the time and only 6 volleys of ammo.

Armour Silver Upgrade, Basic 0

12
10
12
13
12

Total Kills: 59

Armour Basic 5

19
14
17
13
16

Total Kills: 79

Whilst it tells us somthing weird, (Silver armour upgrade is more effective than 5 armour in the EDU file), Regardless it proves beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that armour upgrades ARE NOT just +1 per level.

Ok, i finished with my tests. What i found? There IS something behind armor upgrades. I can definitelly confirm, that armor upgrades adds a bonus to the upgraded unit.

[pevergreen]

Now, this means that when you upgrade the armour on a light unit - from say lvl 0 to lvl 1, you should notice a 4 point increase in defense. However, the ingame description will only show you a 1 point increase. Thus, the question becomes, is the correct armour value being used, and not reported correctly - or is the game using the reported value and causing units to not benefit fully from armor upgrades?

If its being reported wrong, thats great. But experience from myself is that it's being reported correctly.

[SMZ]

well... the tests I just did are right there... I think the results are pretty clear - what numbers have you gotten that make you think differently?

[Carl]

Random point SMZ, Terrico pikes have 0 armour normally, so they have no missile defence without upgrades. so Silver Armour Terrico pikes should have a lower armour value than Gold Pike Militia, a much BETTER way to check would be to re-run the first Pike Militia test, but with them altered inn the EDU file to have 7 armour defence.


Lastly, your armour typ listing is wrong, it should be:

Lvl 0 = Flesh, 0 defense
Lvl 1 = Leather/Padded, 4 defense
Lvl 2 = Light Mail, 5/8 defense
Lvl 3 = Heavy Mail, 7/8 defense
Lvl 4 = Partial Plate, 7/9 defense
Lvl 5 = Full Plate, 9/10 defense
Lvl 6 = Advanced Plate, 10/11 defense

In fact I don't think their IS a standered value for ANY of the armour levels, they all have variances, just look through the western Knights at the top of the EDU file and see how many are wrong.

[SMZ]

lol, I know the txt file is very inconsistent, but that's what the values are listed as supposed to be, in my own txt file I went thru and manually set each unit to the correct numbers, although on mine I put full plate at 10 instead of 9

secondly, it's true, I forgot that defense skill doesn't count to dodging arrows, however that doesn't alter the conclusion at all... if the Tercios only received 2 points of armor from being upgraded to silver, why would they all of a sudden have 23 fewer casualties? That's not a 2 point difference... that's a 7 point difference... as it is supposed to be.

Nonetheless, I'll run the test you suggest with the Pike Militia first altered to have an armor rating of 3 and then an armor rating of 7

[Carl]

secondly, it's true, I forgot that defense skill doesn't count to dodging arrows, however that doesn't alter the conclusion at all... if the Tercios only received 2 points of armor from being upgraded to silver, why would they all of a sudden have 23 fewer casualties? That's not a 2 point difference... that's a 7 point difference... as it is supposed to be

Good, point, would still be intresting to see the result though.

lol, I know the txt file is very inconsistent, but that's what the values are listed as supposed to be, in my own txt file I went thru and manually set each unit to the correct numbers, although on mine I put full plate at 10 instead of 9

Ahh, right, fair enough.