For (some hehe) Dutchies, the Wilders motion

[Fragony]

Now that debate has been declared non grata in the political arena, why not discus it here, opinions.

Personally I think he is 100% right, despite the motion being a somewhat of a provocation. Remember the (rediculous) armenia debate? And how those that didn't want to speak up (ya I know why should they) got political honors in Turkey? Nobody can say that they did't serve two masters here. Abou and whatsherface should make a decision here, either give up their marrocan/Turkish nationalities or leave the parlement. Don't get me wrong, Abou is a great guy, but this is an unacceptable situation.

[Stig]

Well I could post something and we could debate (read: fight) about this same issue over and over again. But I won't. I somehow do agree: Yes 2 nationalities is a bit wierd, but then read our constitution, there's no law against it. Changing it, would mean changing the constitution, too much work for such a trivial matter imo.

[Fragony]

It's a storm in a glass of water I agree, but imho a necesary discussion nonetheless.

[Stormcrow]

Why is it necesary?

Do you truly believe someone will feel less turkish just by taking away a piece of paper?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It's a storm in a glass of water I agree, but imho a necesary discussion nonetheless.

Why not try "tempest in a teacup," it's more alliterative.

By the way, a brief summary for those of us not directly involved would be appreciated. Viewing a blood sport is always more enjoyable if one knows a few of the standard expectations.

[Fragony]

Why is it necesary?

Do you truly believe someone will feel less turkish just by taking away a piece of paper?

Because they would be both a Turkish and a Dutch citizen, how can we be sure their loyalty is with us, pretty important if they are going to decide things for us. The turkish one for example is to decide on immigration-issues, I am not comfortable with that at all. There is no benefit to be had here, only risks. That, and this government is officilally against double nationalities, to allow two people who have two nationalities in said government makes it hard to take them seriously.

@Seamus, it's about government officials who insist on keeping their old nationality.

[Stig]

For Fragony, a piece from a Dutch TV show. And ofcourse for everyone who speaks Dutch and has an healthy sense of humour.


For the mods: link is completely safe.

[KukriKhan]

So (for the Netherlands'-impaired) the issue is dual-citizenship, which is allowed by Holland; and some elected guys have it (dual-ctznsp) and you don't trust their loyalty? Is that it?

Does it matter if the 'dual' country was Canada, Mexico, or Greece, for examples?

[Stig]

Aye, it's dual citizenship. Which is allowed due to law #3 in the constitution (it says that anyone with a Dutch passport is allowed to have a public position, even tho he has another passport).
So has Princess Maxima, who will become Queen in a couple of year (I think, maybe takes longer). I believe Bernhard also kept his German passport (atleast till WW2). And Claus the same I think.

[Geoffrey S]

I must confess to not having followed this due to lack of regular newspapers. But on the principle, I believe people who are direct representatives of the people in parliament should only have the Dutch nationality. It is the Dutch people they represent, and they should not be connected in such a way to another nation; the nature of the nation is irrelevant to me. It's not a matter of trust as such, but the basic principle that they represent the Dutch people and should represent only them.

[Kralizec]

The issue is that we have one Dutch-Turkish MP and soon, a Dutch-Moroccan "state secretary" (I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in the UK, it's basicly the highest position in a ministry except for the minister himself)
Wilders and his party are opposed to dual citizenship, and of course especially for those who hold public offices.

In case of Aboutaleb (the soon to be state secretary), relinquishing his nationality is impossible AFAIK. Morocco doesn't recognize waiver of citizenship. Paraphrasing, Wilders is on the record for saying: "to bad, perhaps he should aim for job in Morroccan politics so he can change that himself"

Just the other day Wilders also made the headlines for saying that Dutch muslims who wish to reside here, should tear out about half the pages of the Qu'ran.

[Stormcrow]

Because they would be both a Turkish and a Dutch citizen, how can we be sure their loyalty is with us, pretty important if they are going to decide things for us.

Again :

Do you truly believe someone will feel less turkish just by taking away a piece of paper?

If anything they'll be less loyal to the country who took away their other passport. If someone manages to climb up the policital ladder that high, it'd be very weird if they didn't have loyalty for the country they're about to serve.

And again...

Do you truly believe someone will feel less turkish just by taking away a piece of paper?

edit: for anyone not familiar with G. Wilders, here he is, the man with the best haircut evah :

http://www.crimelibrary.com/graphics...rt-Wilders.jpg

[Kralizec]

edit: nevermind

[Sjakihata]

The issue is that we have one Dutch-Turkish MP and soon, a Dutch-Moroccan "state secretary" (I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in the UK, it's basicly the highest position in a ministry except for the minister himself)

I think you mean permanent secretary.

[Scurvy]

im not sure i understand why this is an issue, why shoudlnt politicians have dual-citizenship? i dont belive a politician is less loyal due to nationality - a poltiicians first loyalty to is to themselves, they need votes, and if they are seen to do something that has negative consequences then they suffer, therefore their actions are no different to that of entirely national politicians.

i would certainly trust a dual-citizen politician more than that Wilders bloke, just look at his haircut...

[Kralizec]

I think you mean permanent secretary.

They're not civil servants appointed for an indefinite amount of time. It's a political appointment they get when a cabinet is formed.

[Ser Clegane]

the man with the best haircut evah :

That cannot be his real hair ... or can it?

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm intrigued.

This was one of the arguments for excluding Catholics from certain rights and positions in some Protestant countries - the notion (long before passports) that someone could not be loyal both to the state and to the Pope.

If you think it should be impossible to hold office because of a "conflict" of nationalities, do you also believe it is impossible if one has a "conflict" of spiritual affiliation, such as Roman Catholicism?

[Stig]

That cannot be his real hair ... or can it?

I found this some time back:

[Andres]

Hmmm... Have they been elected? If so, what's the fuss about? It's called "democracy".

Besides, you guys should be happy it wasn't a belgian politician, like, let's say Michel Daerden...

[Stig]

How many beers did he have during Carnaval?

[Tribesman]

What on earth is unacceptable about dual-nationality or citizenship for politicians???????

[Kralizec]

For Fragony, a piece from a Dutch TV show. And ofcourse for everyone who speaks Dutch and has an healthy sense of humour.


For the mods: link is completely safe.

I prefer this one

Koefnoen

[KukriKhan]

What on earth is unacceptable about dual-nationality or citizenship for politicians???????

I, for one, dunno, mate. Over here we make the chief exec be 35+ years old and natural-born. I wouldn't mind dropping the 'natural-born' bit, and lowering the age to 25.

[BDC]

It's rubbish, everyone knows a politician's loyalties lie only with whoever they can make money off.

[Stormcrow]

It's rubbish, everyone knows a politician's loyalties lie only with whoever they can make money off.

[Fragony]

Again :

Do you truly believe someone will feel less turkish just by taking away a piece of paper?

It's not about us taking it away, it's about them refusing to give up. I don't want a Turkish citizen making decisions for dutch people, especially when it concerns immigration.

[Geoffrey S]

Some say why drop the second nationality, some say why not. Personally I lean towards the second option, although it's somewhat hypocritical; although I've lived in Holland for nineteen years I'm still only a British citizen, as I've never seen any reason to switch nationalities. I enjoy all the same rights, minus voting, and that's hardly something I miss over here.

[Fragony]

Well what are the benefits, none. What are the risks, many. At the moment the risks are a non-issue, and the 'Tsunami of islamisation that has infiltrated the government' of mr Wilders is a bit, well, much, but it theoraticaly could become woodrot in our fundations. Citizins of 'our mosks are our barracks and our minarettes our bayonettes' Erdogan in the dutch government, undesirable at best.

[Stormcrow]

Do you really think that
1. the politician will make other decisions without his turkish passport?
2. he could get away with an immigration law which is unreasonable ?