Hypothetical Scenario

[Vuk]

I have to back Anti up on this one a little bit from my study of Native American cultures. Many of the designs in culturally distinctive NA weavings actually have their source in the language. You can look at the Dakota language as a sound color language and their decorations on everything as an extension of that. The SW Native Americans who are recognized the most for their weaving has its foundation in their religion, language and culture with nothing borrowed outside of its Native trade structures. The swastika as found in Native American art has been traced to a very old pre-contact independent emergence. The type of thing we see with pyramid building and other forms of architecture and art that appears at different stages of cultural development but independent of contact between these cultures.

I never said ALL of what we consider Indian, I said MOST. You say you study Native American culture? Then you should be able to confirm that. Almost all of Native American commercial "cultural items" was thrown upon them by Westerners. Of course they had their own culture...it just wasn't marketable. For that reason, much of what is thought of as Indian today is not Indian at all.

P.S. The course I took on it said that the SW was introduced to them, not invented by them.

[ShadeHonestus]

I never said ALL of what we consider Indian, I said MOST.

What you consider and what I consider may be vastly different and indeed most of the people that I know that work in the field of archeology and anthropology focusing on NAs would differ.

You say you study Native American culture?

Yes, on my way to doing what I do now, I took the obvious shortcut of a degree in anthropology and on the way to that I was majoring in History (specifically the history of America pre-1900, when i became enamored with Indian cultures)....okay, obviously not a shortcut.

P.S. The course I took on it said that the SW was introduced to them, not invented by them.

Then you should be able to confirm that. Almost all of Native American commercial "cultural items" was thrown upon them by Westerners. Of course they had their own culture...it just wasn't marketable.

Not sure what you are referring to as commercial cultural items. The NA's had a vast trade network dating back thousands of years before Christopher or that Viking guy set foot and much of what they traded was cultural.

P.S. The course I took on it said that the SW was introduced to them, not invented by them.

The art of finger weaving was not introduced to them, it was there long before the Spanish arrived. They originally used cotton and other fibers. The only thing that was introduced was the availability of wool via the Spanish introduction of sheep. So if you want to say wool is not theirs, then thats fine, but the artistic depiction goes beyond the design in their significance and the act of finger weaving, which is at the center of the craft, is not a borrowed art form.

The one thing that is sometimes considered "Indian" is quilting, like their star quilts etc, however that is purely European aside from its cultural significance to the artist.

For that reason, much of what is thought of as Indian today is not Indian at all.

As Joseph Marshall once told me this is a huge problem when interpreting Native American history. There has been so much that has been written incorrectly in the past, either by accident or design, that much of what is taught or written today is completely false because the cultural perspective is off. This is evidenced in great degree by European cultural attempts to reclaim an influence on NA culture that it never had to begin with and only through resemblance and the recognition of trade, can they claim these things.

Of course there are things that can be claimed as commercially tailored items by NA's for the market Europeans created, but even the tiny fraction of these items speak more to NA culture than European influence.

[edit]
Items such as the swatiska variation, which this discussion was about, as stated above was pre-contact and independent in origin.

[Vuk]

Not sure what you are referring to as commercial cultural items. The NA's had a vast trade network dating back thousands of years before Christopher or that Viking guy set foot and much of what they traded was cultural.

I am not speaking of that, but their trade with people in Europe, and more importantly, settlers to America. Also, the "Indian Culture" items they make to attract tourists.






As Joseph Marshall once told me this is a huge problem when interpreting Native American history. There has been so much that has been written incorrectly in the past, either by accident or design, that much of what is taught or written today is completely false because the cultural perspective is off. This is evidenced in great degree by European cultural attempts to reclaim an influence on NA culture that it never had to begin with and only through resemblance and the recognition of trade, can they claim these things.

Of course there are things that can be claimed as commercially tailored items by NA's for the market Europeans created, but even the tiny fraction of these items speak more to NA culture than European influence.


This is the big misconception I am trying to shatter. Those things ARE Indian you could say (because they have been doing them for so long), but they were introduced to the Indians. i.e. a lot of the things they do are not part of their culture, but are tourist attractions introduced to them by the people of the West. This has NOW become part of their culture, but it is Western influence mixed with their original culture. It is very hard to identify original culture, and a lot things that people believed to be original, they are finding is not. (personally, I like their original culture much better. The flashy crap they have now is horrible imho :D)


[edit]
Items such as the swatiska variation, which this discussion was about, as stated above was pre-contact and independent in origin.

I was told that they used to believe that, but not anymore. Could you clear this up with a current source please? (I am too lazy to find one and wouldn't know where to look.) Whichever one of us is right, that doesn't effect my point.

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[ShadeHonestus]

I am not speaking of that, but their trade with people in Europe, and more importantly, settlers to America. Also, the "Indian Culture" items they make to attract tourists.

This is the big misconception I am trying to shatter. Those things ARE Indian you could say (because they have been doing them for so long), but they were introduced to the Indians. i.e. a lot of the things they do are not part of their culture, but are tourist attractions introduced to them by the people of the West.

Can you give some examples so we can get to disecting them? Besides casinos

I was told that they used to believe that, but not anymore. Could you clear this up with a current source please? (I am too lazy to find one and wouldn't know where to look.) Whichever one of us is right, that doesn't effect my point.

Sure, I don't have a link or anything although if you search in your college library under any of the archaeology or anthro journals out there you might find something published. The last thing I heard in the affirmative was 2005 at a lecture given by a gentleman from Colorado State I think, not sure...don't quote me on that as a lot of people spoke that day lol. But anyways it was about the Plains Indians and their relations to the four winds and circular world view in their religion and symbols relating this. The swastika in design was brought up along with many others at this time in its relevance to this. In this case the independent emergence theory came under scrutiny because of the fact that plains indians like the Sioux weren't plains indians until pushed into the plains from the great lakes and mississippi region where they were farmers and this was post contact. However independent emergence has been re-established as dated material from that region along with the mound building cultures to the south have been found in similar meaning. I could go on here, but this is getting long winded...

[Vuk]

Can you give some examples so we can get to disecting them? Besides casinos




...

Rugs, crafts (massive industry), reservations, parks, costumes, etc, etc, etc...

[ShadeHonestus]

Rugs, crafts (massive industry)

Modern day rugs and crafts are things we find in the modern day with Native American cultural depictions, but there are also a number of traditional craft items. www.alltribes.com shows a ton of modern and traditional. However modern day has little to nothing to do with borrowed culture as it does product of the age. Just because they use a microwave doesn't mean they are passing a microwave off as part of their traditional culture.

However I still can't tell you specifically whether a piece is modern, traditional, or european borrowed culture unless you can give me something specific.

reservations, parks

Reservations are federally mandated land set aside for NA tribes to inhabit. The history of reservations is an extremely sad story of corruption, exploitation, theft and ethnic cleansing. This history is extremely vast and I'd encourage anyone to read up on it, but if you had some specific questions, I could probably answer them. Something borrowed from europeans and made their own however, this is not.

Parks are sometimes given NA names, just like towns, rivers, etc.

costumes, etc, etc, etc...

What kind of costumes are we talking about? Gotta throw me a bone here lol

[Vuk]

Modern day rugs and crafts are things we find in the modern day with Native American cultural depictions, but there are also a number of traditional craft items. www.alltribes.com shows a ton of modern and traditional. However modern day has little to nothing to do with borrowed culture as it does product of the age. Just because they use a microwave doesn't mean they are passing a microwave off as part of their traditional culture.

However I still can't tell you specifically whether a piece is modern, traditional, or european borrowed culture unless you can give me something specific.



Reservations are federally mandated land set aside for NA tribes to inhabit. The history of reservations is an extremely sad story of corruption, exploitation, theft and ethnic cleansing. This history is extremely vast and I'd encourage anyone to read up on it, but if you had some specific questions, I could probably answer them. Something borrowed from europeans and made their own however, this is not.

Parks are sometimes given NA names, just like towns, rivers, etc.



What kind of costumes are we talking about? Gotta throw me a bone here lol

I don't think we are on the same page here. When I said rugs and crafts, I was not referring only to modern ones, but ones they have been making since they had contact with the West. The designs and the actual items in a lot of cases are only made to be sold and attract tourists.

As far as reservations, I am refering to the things they sell on the reservations - things made only to sell.

Lot's of the "Indian" designs on parks, and the crafts (really what I was talking about) sold there are not original Indian "culture items".

Commercial "Indian costumes" as well as clothing that Indians make to sell is horribly influenced and sometimed fabricated by Western cultures.

[ShadeHonestus]

I don't think we are on the same page here. When I said rugs and crafts, I was not referring only to modern ones, but ones they have been making since they had contact with the West. The designs and the actual items in a lot of cases are only made to be sold and attract tourists.

Well today this is a cottage industry in the modern age, but there is little in design that comes from Europe. There may be particular cases, but by in large this is not the case. As stated before the use of wool for woven items over Cotton and other native fibers constitutes something borrowed, but not the act of weaving.

When I wanted specifics I wanted specific pieces as examples.

As far as reservations, I am referring to the things they sell on the reservations - things made only to sell.

This is for the purpose of modern day income since the reservation system and a product of the reservation and not of something borrowed culturally. About the only thing that comes to mind without specific examples is silver jewelry. Silver working was introduced in mass by the Spanish to the SW. However it wasn't used in any scale by the native populations until 1870ish. The items they created, jewelry etc were items they already possessed but made from different materials. Turquoise for example has been found in use dating back to 150BC in North America along with seashell and other trinket jewelry.

Lot's of the "Indian" designs on parks, and the crafts (really what I was talking about) sold there are not original Indian "culture items".

Without anything specific its hard to know what you're talking about, most of my personal reference information is genuinely of Indian culture.

Commercial "Indian costumes" as well as clothing that Indians make to sell is horribly influenced and sometimes fabricated by Western cultures

Over 700 distinct groups of Native Americans with each one having its own sense of style (to use a modern day phrase). Without examples it'd be hard to know what you're talking about again, and specific examples.

I know there a number of Native American "costumes" or style of dress for which European culture has assigned incorrect cultural value or role. Such as Stephen Ambrose when he interpreted incorrectly the significance and role of being a "shirt wearer" in his book "Crazy Horse and Custer" (a good book btw even with its flaws).

[Vuk]

Well today this is a cottage industry in the modern age, but there is little in design that comes from Europe. There may be particular cases, but by in large this is not the case. As stated before the use of wool for woven items over Cotton and other native fibers constitutes something borrowed, but not the act of weaving.

When I wanted specifics I wanted specific pieces as examples.



This is for the purpose of modern day income since the reservation system and a product of the reservation and not of something borrowed culturally. About the only thing that comes to mind without specific examples is silver jewelry. Silver working was introduced in mass by the Spanish to the SW. However it wasn't used in any scale by the native populations until 1870ish. The items they created, jewelry etc were items they already possessed but made from different materials. Turquoise for example has been found in use dating back to 150BC in North America along with seashell and other trinket jewelry.



Without anything specific its hard to know what you're talking about, most of my personal reference information is genuinely of Indian culture.



Over 700 distinct groups of Native Americans with each one having its own sense of style (to use a modern day phrase). Without examples it'd be hard to know what you're talking about again, and specific examples.

I know there a number of Native American "costumes" or style of dress for which European culture has assigned incorrect cultural value or role. Such as Stephen Ambrose when he interpreted incorrectly the significance and role of being a "shirt wearer" in his book "Crazy Horse and Custer" (a good book btw even with its flaws).

I'm afraid the last time I read about it or took a course in it was not that soon. I cannot provide you with any specific examples (the last time I looked at India crafts was eight years ago (approx.)).

[Mikeus Caesar]

With reference to communist icons on shirts - most of these shirts are typically worn by trendy kids trying to be cool and 'political'. The sad thing is, most of them wouldn't be able to pronounce Che Guevara, nevermind say who he was and what he did, and nor would they be able to say just who Mao is, or what the Hammer and Sickle symbolises.

And isn't it a hypocrisy that Che Guevara, a symbol of communism, is used by capitalists with the purpose of making money?