Max No# Units??

[sharrukin]

What is the maximum number of units that can be added to the game? I have heard there is a limit. I didn't see anything in Duke John's Unit Guide on this, so...

BKB's Mod has 256 units according to the Gnome Editor and the Reconquista Mod has 325 units according to the Gnome Editor. I am not sure if the Reconquista Mod uses all of the units, or if this makes a difference. Does anyone actually know the maximum?

[naut]

256 I believe is the limit. It makes sense in computer terms as well.

[sharrukin]

256 I believe is the limit. It makes sense in computer terms as well.

Any idea on how the Reconquista Mod gets away with 325 units?

I was hoping to add some units to the BKB Mod!

[naut]

Hmmm, are the units after the 256th available to be produced in-game? Or are they redundant?

[sharrukin]

Hmmm, are the units after the 256th available to be produced in-game? Or are they redundant?

Well the units down to No# 156 are Mod specific units, and that is when the standard vanilla in game units begin. From No# 307 to 325 you have the ships, agent's and Spy's, and then the crusade/jihad. I would assume that a lot of those units are not producible as Sherwood Foresters and Pictish Cavalry were not usually found in Spain. However the spy and crusade are probably producible. Does this mean that the total number of enabled units can only be 256? Where does the information for the number 256 come from?

[caravel]

Perhaps they're not all available in any particular era at once?

[sharrukin]

Perhaps they're not all available in any particular era at once?

Well I transferred the unit list from BKB's mod Prod file over to the Reconquista mod's unit Production file and renamed it EARLY_MODDED_CRUSADERS_UNIT_PROD11.TXT

A simple COPY from the very beginning of the BKB file down to No# 256 Welsh Bandits (inclusive) and PASTE replacing everything in the Reconquista file down to No# 256 Lithuanian Cavalry (inclusive).

I had to remove all references to FN_SWISS and FN_ITALIAN, or it wouldn't load, but after that it loaded and multiple examples of the Emissary showed up so the BKB list is active as well as unit No# 316 which is the second Emissary entry. The Venetians could build the barque as well, which in entry No# 203 they cannot, but they can in entry No# 308, which would seem to indicate that the ships and agents (No# 307 to No# 325) entries from the original Reconquista file are active.

[cegorach]

Damn me...

I tried it, tested it and it seems that ALL non-combat 'units' ignore the limit.

So basically you can have 256 units + I don't know how many freaking mounts, agents, ships, crusades and jihads.

It seems the only factor what matters to count as one of those 256 units is combat capability on the tactical map...


I must congratulate you this discovery, I really am impressed and it really is something, I can assure you.



Well... it seems that PMTW 2.0 will reach 1000 of units after all...

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I can't say that this will incorporated into BKB Super Mod but this will be put into Age of Warlords. I've been very busy with work and real life so i haven't had chance to work on it but it will be finished soon i assure you, hopefully with more units after this great find

[sharrukin]

Damn me...

I tried it, tested it and it seems that ALL non-combat 'units' ignore the limit.

So basically you can have 256 units + I don't know how many freaking mounts, agents, ships, crusades and jihads.

It seems the only factor what matters to count as one of those 256 units is combat capability on the tactical map...


I must congratulate you this discovery, I really am impressed and it really is something, I can assure you.



Well... it seems that PMTW 2.0 will reach 1000 of units after all...

Well given how many hours of enjoyment I have gotten out of BKB's and other downloaded mod's, if I found something that helps then maybe it counts as partial payback!

I tried adding another unit (cavalry) and it seems to default to militia sergeants.

[cegorach]

I investigated it even further a moment ago.

So I've placed one of units at the beginning of the crusader, replacing Highland Clansmen and added a new one as 257th unit in the file.

I expected everything, but suprisingly it was all right - the new units used its own icons and animations, so did unit nr. 258 at least I thought so.

I've tried the new unit in the campaign and ... it appeared as possible to produce with its own icon and description so I have recruited one and it appeared as... Highland Clansmen...

I believe that any combat unit after 256 will by default be recruited as the first unit in the original crusader unit file.
I am not really interested to try if I change the first unit in the original file to a different one than the Clansmen I will get it as the new default unit - clearly it has no use anyway [EDIT: writing this post I think I have found one, perhaps quite intriguing...] , except in custom ( maybe MP too ? ) mode so it is good news to such mods, the bad ones are there will be nothing more in the campaign than 256 combat units.

Anyway it is excellent that we have those non-combat slots to explore now.

[naut]

Excellent news indeed! Will be more useful for my future Chinese mod(s).

I am not really interested to try if I change the first unit in the original file to a different one than the Clansmen I will get it as the new default unit - clearly it has no use anyway [EDIT: writing this post I think I have found one, perhaps quite intriguing...] , except in custom ( maybe MP too ? ) mode so it is good news to such mods, the bad ones are there will be nothing more in the campaign than 256 combat units.

So you mean that all these units appeared as Highland Clansmen in battle but were able to have their own descriptions etc?

[cegorach]

No were produced as Clansmen, but used different recruitment requirements - buildings, homelands etc.




Unfortunatelly for now I couldn't get anything except the Higland Clansmen, seems to be hardcoded, because I removed their entry from every file I could find except names and descriptions and STILL got them as the result.


I will try something later I discovered it has its uses - you can add different homelands and building requirements for such unit, but for now it is always the bloody Clansmen...

[sharrukin]

I had two identical units of Vendic Cavalry. Both show up as identical Polish units in the game. However the unit in slot 304 defaulted to a 40-man strong Militia Sergeants (60 is normal) with the picture and description for Militia Sergeants, while the same unit in slot 111 is produced as Vendic Cavalry, just as intended. The Highland Clansmen are the first unit in my file as well.

Moved a ship to slot 307, while deleting the original entry, and it works fine. I suppose this means we can have as many types of ships and agents as we want.

p.s. I made the Militia Sergeant only producible in Wales and the Vendic Cavalry now defaults to a 40-strong unit of Ghazi Infantry. They default to Ghazi Infantry in wales as well.

[cegorach]

OK. I think I finally have it all !

I have checked and I am pretty sure that nr. 257 mirrosrs nr 1 in the SAME Crusader file.
Nr 257 mirrors 2 and so on so it is pretty easy to use.

The new unit will have its own recruitment requirements, its own homeland, will have different number of men when it appears and initially can have different icon and info_picture (but when ready will appear as the unit it mirrors).
In addition the new unit will be fully playable in custom mode/maybe in MP as well.


The new option has its own uses:

- same unit, but with different homeland (it is not possible to add two homelands for one unit),

- same unit, but with different requirements, recruitment time and cost (originally - you can set several different building requirements for one unit, but each one has to use a unique structure if you want to have it available to different degree for different factions),

- perhaps to increase a chance for one unit to appear as mercenaries without changes in its area of recruitment,



There are things which still need trying, though:

1. Does the AI ignore the entries above 256 ?

2. Can the new units be used as 'dismounted' option for ordinary 256 ?

3. Possibly other things too.



I think the idea can be extremely useful in my ECW campaign or to allow two levels of some units - second appears only if you have certain buildings (can be impossible to destroy so will act as a kind of special resource) in a province so easier or harder to access, but still possible to mix with the mirrored original.

Damn, I will have to think about it.

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=cegorach]

2. Can the new units be used as 'dismounted' option for ordinary 256 ?

I can answer this question already.

Checked it and tested and it works fine.

The units above 256 can be used as the dismounted option of the 'real' ones and when dismounted will appear with its own name, animations, icons, stats and everything else just like in custom mode.


This clears even more space for the original units - another 10+ units per campaign in PMTW 2.0.


I also tried if the new units case CTDs if used by added factions and except the usual limits (certain animation folders) there is no further danger.
Completelly safe and damn useful.

[sharrukin]

OK. I think I finally have it all !

I have checked and I am pretty sure that nr. 257 mirrosrs nr 1 in the SAME Crusader file.
Nr 257 mirrors 2 and so on so it is pretty easy to use.

The new unit will have its own recruitment requirements, its own homeland, will have different number of men when it appears and initially can have different icon and info_picture (but when ready will appear as the unit it mirrors).
In addition the new unit will be fully playable in custom mode/maybe in MP as well.

Looking back it seems I can confirm this.

Vendic Cavalry in slot 304 defaulted to Militia Sergeants in slot 48 [256+48=304]
I removed a ship to slot 307 and the Vendic Cavalry (now in slot 303) are now defaulting to Ghazi Infantry in slot 47. [256+47=303]

So it should be possible to have an Urban Militia unit called Milicia Urbana in Spain and Trained Bands in England, with different descriptions for several factions but when produced will be the base unit.

[R'as al Ghul]

Nice discovery!

[Tyberius]

[QUOTE=cegorach]

I can answer this question already.

Checked it and tested and it works fine.

The units above 256 can be used as the dismounted option of the 'real' ones and when dismounted will appear with its own name, animations, icons, stats and everything else just like in custom mode.


This clears even more space for the original units - another 10+ units per campaign in PMTW 2.0.


I also tried if the new units case CTDs if used by added factions and except the usual limits (certain animation folders) there is no further danger.
Completelly safe and damn useful.

What if you replace ships/agents with combat units and move all non-combat units to the slots beyond 256? would this work?

[cegorach]

DO NOT REPLACE THEM, but add the new units BEFORE them in the queue.

Agents and Crusade/Jihad MUST stay otherwise the game will not work, but you can safely PUSH them and they will still appear in the game.

There is no such a problem with the warships and mounts - you can add new ones - apparently without any maximum limit at all...

However I believe that too many units can cause additional RAM usage or something so I cannot recommend using more than 400 units in a single crusader_unit file.

I think it is enough, overall.

[Tyberius]

DO NOT REPLACE THEM, but add the new units BEFORE them in the queue.

Agents and Crusade/Jihad MUST stay otherwise the game will not work, but you can safely PUSH them and they will still appear in the game.

There is no such a problem with the warships and mounts - you can add new ones - apparently without any maximum limit at all...

However I believe that too many units can cause additional RAM usage or something so I cannot recommend using more than 400 units in a single crusader_unit file.

I think it is enough, overall.

Yes, That sounds ok, but in most crusader_era_unitprod.txt there are units AFTER ships/agents corresponding to VI and wathever installed mods, and if I just "push" them by the insertion of new units I will push this units beyond slot 256 too. So, do I have to copy all units that are after and paste them before?
My intentions are to add just 28 units from 1 to 256 and leave crusade/jihad/mounts/ships/agents, from slot 257 to 284. Can this be done and how?

Thank you very much for your advice.

Tyberius,
Noob but promising modder.

[Krondor]

Hmmm... do i understand that right u can have 256 Combat Units + unspecified Non-Combat Units in the game?

Can someone post a TXT file with the changes? I would be intressted in that. Cant wait to put more units in the game...

U Guys Rock

[cegorach]

Yes, That sounds ok, but in most crusader_era_unitprod.txt there are units AFTER ships/agents corresponding to VI and wathever installed mods, and if I just "push" them by the insertion of new units I will push this units beyond slot 256 too. So, do I have to copy all units that are after and paste them before?
My intentions are to add just 28 units from 1 to 256 and leave crusade/jihad/mounts/ships/agents, from slot 257 to 284. Can this be done and how?

Thank you very much for your advice.

Tyberius,
Noob but promising modder.

Exactly.

I suggest to start with copying/pasting those units to slots 257+, saving the changes and running the game - YOU SHOULD be able to recruit TWO identical agents/ships now.

If that works you can easily and safely delete the early agent/ship/mount entries without problems and add new combat units in their place.

I assume you know how to add new units to the game ?

If yes I suggest to add them before the last 'original' combat unit to avoid some errors which sometimes accur when a mistake is made with pasting lines of new data in the files/

If no - you need to visit the guides in this forum.







If you have some experience you should realise that these slots are JUST the beginning.

Apparently there is NO limit to the custom mode only units in the game.

In addition the units which are NOT DIRECTLY recruitable in the game (or by rebellions/mercenaries etc) also IGNORE the limit.

This is useful for the units which appear ONLY by 'dismounting' the first 256 units in the game.
If you don't know already - it is all very easy to 'dismount' not only cavalry, but also infantry and artillery because MTW VI engine is very flexible in this area.



After those options are explored you might consider adding new mount into the game - the mounts DO NOT need to use horse/camel anmations, but ANY you like which means it is possible to create units with mixed equipment.
I can add more details about it, but that is rather difficult and can be considered close to the very peak of MTW modding craft.

The summit might be - the final use of the 257+ units slots. These are so called (by me ;)) 'mirror' units which use animations of the original 256 units, but can have entirely different recruitment conditions/numbers/cost.
But that is something only the best and most careful can try. It is literally cracking the MTW engine or creating an anomaly which might not be too safe to use at all....



Krondor



You should have all/almost all of your answers right in this post....

[macsen rufus]

In addition the units which are NOT DIRECTLY recruitable in the game (or by rebellions/mercenaries etc) also IGNORE the limit.

Now that is interesting - basically any "NO_FACTION" units will leave a spare slot Dismount-only units leave a spare slot and units can be mirrored

This is one of the most exciting threads for MTW modding in a long time, some great discoveries. I'm sure the 256 combat unit "limit" comes from something to do with the training parchment, but anyway, it looks like we've busted it wide open now.

One question - Ceg, do you know if these "mirror" units must be exact - more to the point, can you change weapons and shields on mirrors, so they're still slightly different? And do they need their own review panel and info_pic graphics? I assume new names and descriptions will be required.

I only wish I had 256 units already so I can start using 257+ to find out for myself

[cegorach]

This is one of the most exciting threads for MTW modding in a long time, some great discoveries. I'm sure the 256 combat unit "limit" comes from something to do with the training parchment, but anyway, it looks like we've busted it wide open now.

Most likely.

One question - Ceg, do you know if these "mirror" units must be exact

THey WILL be exacly the same REGARDLESS what you do to them - only recruitment zones, INITIAL review panel/info pics/descriptions stuff will be different, but the unit WILL APPEAR as its original i.e. the unit it shadows/mirrors/doubles.
Except in the custom mode where it will be different.

- more to the point, can you change weapons and shields on mirrors, so they're still slightly different?

No, you will get the original - that includes EVERYTHING - stats, maintainance costs, valour bonuses etc. Everything except the things you see when recruiting it.

And do they need their own review panel and info_pic graphics? I assume new names and descriptions will be required.

They will be necessary, but you will see those ONLY while it is in the recruitment queue - it will appear as the original.


Of cours it has numerous flaws, but also many advantages - you can have:

- new recruitment zones and requirements (buildings) for those units,
- different numbers, but the default value would be the number of soldiers in the original unit so it is better to have the 'dopplegangers' starting with smaller numbers than the original unless you plan it to have some of them as 'acceptable losses'. Also if such units appear in an army which fights a battle the AI will 'tidy up' the roster shifting the additional men in some units or merge them altogether.
- different initial cost,
- different initial descriptions, pictures and icons - but only in the building queue,

I only wish I had 256 units already so I can start using 257+ to find out for myself

Also the 257th unit will mirror the 1st, 258th the second and so on... Sometimes it might get useful to shift certain units in the roster to get the desired 'twins'. Obviously ALL units will be mirrored so it is advisable to watch out for agents/ships/mounts which could ruin the desired idea.

Of course in your mod it WILL ruin the deadcoords so you will have to change those too. In PMTW I accepted I will never have the dead bodies - but at least with over 1000 units in the game it doesn't look so bad.



EDIT - actually you can add some 'empty' entries if you want to use the mirrors/copies in your mod - imagine what you can have in the game e.g. Carthage or Rome as the really important recruitment centers spawning entire legions of troops. ;)

[macsen rufus]

Thanks, Cegorach I think for my purposes, the alternate recruitment zones is about the most useful feature, I look forward to trying it out, I just need another 100 units first

[cegorach]

I have recently intalled your mode and didn't try it yet. Still you might thing about 'dismountable options' i.e. Roman legionaries with javelins as the dismounted option - the AI is notorious for its inability to use melee units with missile attacks properly.

I am writing it without full knowledge about your mod, but in case you didn't use the option in this area...

[macsen rufus]

Hi Ceg - I have taken that option on some units (Egyptian nakhtu-aa have a dismount with throwing spear, Sherdan mercenaries are heavy inf but dismount to phrr with javelins, etc) I haven't done it with the Roman units. It's a real limitation for this era as nearly everyone went out on to the battlefield with something to throw before charging, and the default skirmishing is a real pain. I generally find that for the "non-skirmisher" types, keeping the ammo down to 1 does often result in "chuck & charge" behaviour (especially when they are undisciplined, too ) For 'real' skirmishers I give them more ammo. So hastati get 1 pilum, but the velites (IIRC) get 6 javs, and some units just don't get any, despite historicity (eg gaesatae). I find the AI has no problem attacking me with its hastati and principes - at least it's not as bad as NTW where the AI insists on skirmishing with its line infantry

I really would love it if the unit_prod had a "default attitude" column where you could set S, F or E for each unit...

Still, with plenty more unit slots, I might try out a separation between missile dismounts and non-missile originals.

[cegorach]

That should work. The idea is to leave all those javelin & melee units to a human player and leave the AI with pure close combat specialists.