Are we sure they used it overhand? I mean really sure?

[Dayve]

I mean... I've been doing some experimentation with an old punchbag and various different length spears that i made myself over the last day or two... I've been using them underarm and overarm, and i find that overarm, the thrusts are less acurate and less powerful... But overarm the thrusts are more powerful and more accurate, and overall it feels more natural to hold the spear underarm, it's also a lot more comfortable and takes up less space.

So how sure are we that the Greeks and other ancients used their spears overarm?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Are we absolutely positively swear on our own lives sure? No. Of course not.

We will definitely not be going back on this on guys. Sorry. If someone can't play the mod because of the awful problem there or because they have tried to hold a spear a certain way and feels pretty sure that should override all that other evidence, well, we did the best we could.

[Olaf The Great]

You wrote Over-arm twice :)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

In the end you have to chose between the vanilla armhanging down low or the overhand animation. IIRC, anything in between causes crazy clipping.

If you like this arguement there is one about it that is many pages long over at the "Hegemonia: City States" forum at the TWC.

[Dayve]

Are we absolutely positively swear on our own lives sure? No. Of course not.

We will definitely not be going back on this on guys. Sorry. If someone can't play the mod because of the awful problem there or because they have tried to hold a spear a certain way and feels pretty sure that should override all that other evidence, well, we did the best we could.

I never said there was an awful problem and i never said it was stopping me from playing, and i never said that me stabbing a punchbag in various different ways means you should change anything... I was simply saying that it feels more natural and is more effective to hold a spear underarm where you can thrust harder and more accurately...

Although there is one slight problem with the overarm phalanx in EB... Phalanx lines become extremely disorganised as soon as contact is made, and it doesn't look very much at all like a phalanx, more like a bunch of untrained men who didn't understand their officer when he said "Stand in a straight line and hold your spears out ahead, do not under any circumstances break the line, a break in our line would disrupt our entire way of battle".

But it's not that big a deal for me as i never play as phalanx wielding factions.. Only as Rome.

[Kull]

I never said there was an awful problem and i never said it was stopping me from playing, and i never said that me stabbing a punchbag in various different ways means you should change anything... I was simply saying that it feels more natural and is more effective to hold a spear underarm where you can thrust harder and more accurately...

Although there is one slight problem with the overarm phalanx in EB... Phalanx lines become extremely disorganised as soon as contact is made, and it doesn't look very much at all like a phalanx, more like a bunch of untrained men who didn't understand their officer when he said "Stand in a straight line and hold your spears out ahead, do not under any circumstances break the line, a break in our line would disrupt our entire way of battle".

But it's not that big a deal for me as i never play as phalanx wielding factions.. Only as Rome.

By definition, the overarm guys are not a phalanx. And practicing this stuff by yourself isn't really a good test. You need to line up with a bunch of other guys who use the same style....have even more spear equipped guys behind you, and be opposed by an equivalent group. That will tell you pretty quick how viable it is. Underarm is fine when you are a full spear length away from your foe. But in the shield-to-shield battles described by the ancients, you won't be able to do anything with it. The overarm is not only held above the enemy shield (offering more target area), but equally important, it's also lifted above the press of bodies, giving you a chance to use it.

[Thaatu]

In a hoplite vs. hoplite battle the front row would push the enemy with their shields, who would push back with their shields, so that the front row shields were locked together. The second, third, fourth, etc. rows would push the line in front of them. With the hoplite "unit" being so tightly packed, using a spear underarm would limit it's usage as the torsos and legs of the men behind you would restrict the horizontal movement of the spear.

Using it from the armpit meant that the spear was on the same level with the enemies' shields, so it didn't do much good either. Using it overhand you could make quick short stabs over the linked shield line, disrupting the enemy and maybe hitting something. In a 1 on 1 fight overhand style would be less effective, but it fits in with the hoplite formation.

Maybe those units you described lost their cohesion because they were not on guard mode? If they were an AI unit then I think that's probably it. Plus 1.5 introduced a new bug to phalanx formation itself, where individual soldiers of the unit just wonder off in the heat of battle, so the vanilla phalanx isn't too organized either.


Then again I'm no expert so I don't take any of this as a fact. I only have my common sense, which is not much.

Edit: Kull put it better. I'm jealous.

[Dayve]

Ah. this would make more sense.. I never thought of it that way.

[Brightblade]

yay looks like we all learned something today huh

[Piddyx]

On pottery I believe they are shown using them overhanded.

Also, consider how many greeks back then were missing one eye.

edit: Oh, some one allready put up the same pot!

[Shigawire]

The famous Chigi vase, posted by Piddyx, dates from 650 BC - depicts a scene of the Messenian war of 800s BC, between Spartans and Messenians.

It's one of the more famous depictions of overhand.

I think Watchman's points are very valid, in that they would use whatever method suited the situation. For cavalry, underhand might just suffice and be the best method. The same would likely be true in fighting relatively unarmored Persians. But in tight hoplite vs hoplite fighting, overhand is the only way to wield the spear effectively. There's also the issue of how armored the opponent is. With a bell-cuirass, hoplon and corinthian helmet, you basically have one viable anatomical target; the neck and face, which provides further argument for using overhand.

[Watchman]

...and the thighs and the groin. I figure a skilled spearman would have no problems plunging his tip there from an overhand grip should there appaear an opening in the foe's defense though.

[pezhetairoi]

thank goodness the gaesatae don't fight in a hoplite style. >_>

[Watchman]

Eh, I understand it was universally a standard practise to basically aim for what you could reach and thought you could hurt. Ergo, body armour + shield => lots of mangled legs etc.

And when it comes down to it, "no weapon was too short to reach the enemy" as IIRC one commentary on the cavalry fight at Cannae puts it...