Laying plans for a HRE game

[The Unknown Guy]

So:
-Pros:
The Empire is huge, has many special units, and can become powerful enough to ignore the Pope altogether in time

-Cons
It starts at a very low tech level, low influence, and a tendence to rebellions and civil wars.


Not only I want to play a decent HRE (and catholic faction) game; I need it to monitor whether my nerfing of Jinetes works or it´s still a situation where either the almos overrun Spain for lack of Jinetes, or they get overrun by Jinete hordes...

[seireikhaan]

I would actually consider the size of the empire to be its greatest weakness. Simply put, there are too many(catholic) neighbours surrounding you. Plus, there are a lot of provinces to defend.

My general advice is to blitz the danes by the second turn. I've heard many advise blitzing Italy as well. However, I never seem to be able to pull it off without getting attacked by Poland/France/Hungary as well and getting summarily destroyed.

Also, it is a must to specialize provinces. Some, I hardly build up at all. Switzerland(halberdiers/pikeman), Swabia(Swabian Swordsman), Provence(farming), Sweden(farming, iron, trade, and huscarles), Saxony(V1 Gothic knights for future), and Franconia/Bohemia(iron, though I just pick one of these) are generally the ones I go for. If you manage to find the cash, building up Norway is also nice, for troop production and shipbuilding.

Also, I would dedicate a province for spies and assassins, you'll want them to help prevent civil wars and to get rid of that damn Pope when you inevitably get excommed. And if you can't get rid of the Pope and your king sucks, then assassinate him instead.

As for the Jinette thing, I don't think it matters that much what you do to them in terms of for the AI. I've never had a game where the Almos and Spaniards end up in a standoff. They almost ALWAYS attack each other, and when they do, one of them will ALWAYS end up steamrolling the other. That is, unless you can manage to interfere yourself, which I seriously doubt you'll be able to do as the HRE.

In fact, I've only had one game where the two didn't go right at each other. Instead, the Almos took Valencia and went up through Aragon. However, war still inevitably broke out when the Spaniards started crusading. And thus, the combined forces of the Spanish and Danes(me) stemmed the tide of Islam. And the ungrateful holy father didn't give me a dime for my efforts...

[Lord Cazaric]

I have never seen the Spanish AI defeat the Almohads...every time they go to war, the Almohads slaughter their Catholic enemies and often march right into France and even, once, Germany.

The only time I've ever seen the Spanish beat the Almohads is when I was playing as the Spanish. I sent ten crusades all the way along to Palestine and, by the tenth one (the one that had 12,000 crusaders), Muscovy. I didn't intend to attack the Almohads - just to take the Holy Land from the Egyptians, but I didn't realise that Muslims didn't allow crusades to pass.

Unfortunately for the Almohads, as soon as they attacked my crusade, they were doomed. My crusade slaughtered them, and afterwards I used North Africa as a means to boost each crusade as it passed through.

[Deus ret.]

I have never seen the Spanish AI defeat the Almohads...every time they go to war, the Almohads slaughter their Catholic enemies and often march right into France and even, once, Germany.

how many variations this game knows! in my games, the Almos usually have the upper hand initially, but after some early successes it's the Castilians who drive them out - sometimes with a little help from their Christian friends further north (usually the winner of the English-French conflict).

and afterwards I used North Africa as a means to boost each crusade as it passed through.

interesting. how did you get up the zeal far enough to be beneficial to the passing crusade, i.e. at least 50%? or were you meaning something different?


As for the HRE campaign, good luck! It's hard but fun. I'm looking forward to hear of some news. If you're interested, I posted some comments to my own HRE campaign (which sound rather frustrated in the retrospective) here.

[The Unknown Guy]

Interesting. What I had thought was a "minimalistic" offensive defense: Since the best things you can build at the beggining are spearmen and you have huge borders, having a good military force from the beggining is unfeasible, so I am building forts in every border, and stacking it with a small cheap garrison (ideally slav warriors or spearmen), which is to retreat to the castle if anyone gets funny ideas around me,and then leave three big standing armies, one in Franconia, another in Lorraine (I think) and a third one in Bohemia. This allows to strike out at anything coming around.

Of course, this lefts void the strategy of killing off one small neighbour early on with your starting troops, but in the long run, you suffer less rebellions.

[Deus ret.]

I'd suggest Burgundy as a garrison stronghold - its strategic position is one of the best in the entire game. If you rely on defensive warfare, you'll lose Provence, though.

Of course, this lefts void the strategy of killing off one small neighbour early on with your starting troops, but in the long run, you suffer less rebellions.

Allow me to disagree. Since your neighbors will gang up on you sooner or later, it's better to take one or two out as long as you have some breathing space. Thanks to inbuilt AI hostility against the HRE, their inclination to make peace with you again tends to zero, and most often they avoid conflict among themselves, leaving them more forces to attack you with. Don't get me wrong, they'll relent at some point - when you're down to a mere handful of provinces and have gone through one or two civil wars.

So be a strong player. It will be possible to turtle a little with the HRE, but only in a position of real strength. So grab the opportunity to finish off some of your later enemies and you'll be much better off.

This is my advice at least. You may find your own game very different from these dire predictions, so go ahead and enjoy it! That's the most important thing in any case.

[Great Est.]

As for the Jinette thing, I don't think it matters that much what you do to them in terms of for the AI. I've never had a game where the Almos and Spaniards end up in a standoff. They almost ALWAYS attack each other, and when they do, one of them will ALWAYS end up steamrolling the other.

I'm playing as the Hungarians and the Spanish and Almos are still coexisting and with their original territories in 1160. In fact, only the Aragonese have been wiped out (Their king continued to invade the French all alone).
I agree the Spanish or the Almos usually wipe each other out, usually the Spanish in my experience. But I think since I'm taking it slow on this campaign, every faction has been able to survive in their own lands and not get "pushed" to invade their neighbors. Do AI factions tend to survive and coexist longer when one follows more of a turtling strategy?
As for the HRE, I have been allied with them from go, focusing my efforts on Italians and the Byz. Two reasons for this: I wanted them to be a buffer against the French and English and I want them to build themselves up to provide more of a challenge. Especially in an early start, they are easy pickings for the Szekely (sp?).

[seireikhaan]

For Hungary, I usually grab the rebels in the surrounding areas first, until I've got Kiev as my eastern border. Then I build up so I can churn out Szekely and Avar Nobles from Moldavia. DON'T FORGET THE AVAR NOBLES! They are a great cavalry early on.

Once I get that, I target the Byzantines and pound them in until I've got Constantinople. I usually stop there for the one border. Also, an optional move along this timeline is to go for Venice early, however I usually don't because I know I'll stretch myelf even thinner. Another optional move is to wipe out Poland and take the territory from Pomerania to Lithuania in the north. Again, I prefer to skip over this option while I wait for the horde.Once I've got the "triangle of Kiev/Constantinople/Venice or Serbia, I like to turtle until I've faced down the horde. Kiev makes an excellent place to put your defences, as its a bridge battle. Just make sure to have LOTS of Halberds/Arbs/Chiv. Seargeants for the battle.

The HRE can be left for later, they usually leave me alone, as they have other fish to fry.