A Question on English Grammar

[Shaka_Khan]

Sometimes I get confused on when to use 'it' or 'they'.

For example,
Billabong International sells surfing wear. It sells around the world.
-or-
Billabong International sells surfing wear. They sell around the world.

Which is the correct way? I think the top would be right because I'm referring to one company. But then the bottom can be right when considering the fact that there are a lot of workers in Billabong International. Am I referring to the company or the workers?

With a country,
Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. It is thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.
-or-
Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. They are thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.

I think the top would be correct, meaning that in the example with Billabong, 'it' would be correct.

It's the same with a group, a dozen and a lot. Would you use 'it' or 'they' after those?
But when I leave out the 'a' in group, should I use they?

[GeneralHankerchief]

In your first example, the construction of your two sentences imply that "it" or "they" refers to the surfing wear. If you want them to refer to the company or the workers, I suggest that you re-word the first sentence to place the subject directly before the "it."

As for the second example, the first sentence is correct.

[Shaka_Khan]

In your first example, the construction of your two sentences imply that "it" or "they" refers to the surfing wear. If you want them to refer to the company or the workers, I suggest that you re-word the first sentence to place the subject directly before the "it."...

Oops. Thanks. I'll try again.

I like Billabong International. It sells surfing wear.
-or-
I like Billabong International. They sell surfing wear.

[Tamur]

Naturally I would say that you'd use the plural form everywhere.

Billabong sell surfing wear. They charge too much for it.

Chelsea announced a tour of China today. They will go in 2008.



As for your second question, are you asking which of:

A group of travellers went to the store. They bought lutefisk by the kilo.

and

The group of travellers went to the store. It bought lutefisk by the kilo.

would be correct? If so, my English says the first one is correct... the second with it sounds extremely odd. But this is an area where I know UK and American English are wildly different, so some other opinions might be good.

[Shaka_Khan]

Does this mean that I was wrong? I was talking about this to my friend in school. English is his second language. Oh the humiliation. I have lost the initiative.

[sapi]

it the company, and it the country, but they is used for people

[naut]

Both make sense nonetheless.

[sapi]

The second part of the second example in the first post doesn't

[Quid]

Sometimes I get confused on when to use 'it' or 'they'.

For example,
Billabong International sells surfing wear. It sells around the world.
-or-
Billabong International sells surfing wear. They sell around the world.

First example: 'It' in this sentence can either substitute the subject (Billabong International) or the direct object (surfing wear).

If you want to be clear about whether you mean the subject or the direct object you might want to use 'They'. This would make it clear as only 'Billabong International' yould possibly be in the plural - 'surfing wear', however, cannot.

With a country,
Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. It is thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.
-or-
Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. They are thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.

Second example: Here you cannot use 'They' as countries are only ever used in the singular (if you use a country's name you actually speak about the country (as a singular entity) and not the people living in it). It follows, therefore, that only the first is possible.

Hope that was some help.

Quid

[InsaneApache]

Let's hope your right this time. Just to save you further embarrassment.

[Quid]

Let's hope your right this time. Just to save you further embarrassment.

It's going to happen. You and I know it. Smartarse responses always get punished. Matter of time...

Awaiting linguistic decapitation...

Quid

[TevashSzat]

It should be noted that if you are using a pronoun to talk about a person that is singular, it will not be used, but instead either he or she

[Sjakihata]

It is used when referring to a company. A company in said situation is regarded, grammatically as 3rd person, hence it is used. The same is true for a country.

The police is in 3rd person as well.

[Conradus]

Second example: Here you cannot use 'They' as countries are only ever used in the singular (if you use a country's name you actually speak about the country (as a singular entity) and not the people living in it). It follows, therefore, that only the first is possible.

Hope that was some help.

Quid

What about the United States?

[Sjakihata]

It is still a country as is the Philippines.

[TevashSzat]

Yea, just because a word end in "s" does not necessarily mean that the word is plural.

[InsaneApache]

ye I agree with you all.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually a country can be reffered to as "She." A company could be they when reffering to an action.

"BA bought all our shares, they own us now."

It depends on whether you view the company as an entity in and of itself, or a collection of people.

I suppose The United States could be "they" as well, it depends on whether you concieve of it as independant states or as one state.

So in reality the correct pronoun depends on the intent and the perception of the subject.

This is one of the weird things about English, because the language has been raped so many times it doesn't have very consistant rules. We've lost five pronouns to begin with.

[TevashSzat]

Wigferth, the United States is usually used as being singular in modern cases and since it is a proper name, one doesn't have to take the meaning literally of a group of states that are united, but rather regards it as a single entity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm aware of that, I was speaking from a purely gramatical point of view. Obviously most people view the US as a single state.

I thought that was implicit in my post, hence the emphasis on could.

[dacdac]

But this just doesn't sound right.
The U.S. are number 1 on earth, and they are supreme.
BUT, this does
The United States are number 1 on earth, and they are supreme.
in the first sentence, arent i stating that a singular noun is supreme with the singular noun being replaced with a plural noun.
In the second, im using a plural noun that has a singular connotation, and the plural form of is and the plural form of it of a previously stated plural noun.
Im confused. English sucks. I hate it. It has 50,000 rules each with 10,000 exceptions to it. Thats why i prefer a mix of slang, ebonics and gangsta. it up the hizzle. fo sho.

[sapi]

@dacdac - i would never think of using either example, as they're gramatically horrible

Something along the lines of 'The US is one of the most powerful countries on earth and it is often regarded as supreme' gets the point across much better

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I believe this usage differs somewhat between US and correct English, in that we tend to use the singular form for collective nouns, whereas they use plural.

US English-The mob! They are coming!

English-The mob! It is coming!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That's because we're a maonarchy with no individual identity BKS.

[TevashSzat]

Well, once you know English for a while you kinda get a sixth sense on whether something is right gramatically. It just sounds wrong to me if the grammar is bad.

[Duke Malcolm]

Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. It is thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.
-or-
Papua New Guinea is one of the most least explored. They are thought to have undiscovered species of plants and animals.

On another note, "most" in the above sentences is redundant, it is implied in "least". It is comparable to saying "one of the most biggest".

I think the top would be correct, meaning that in the example with Billabong, 'it' would be correct.

Yes, "it" would be correct, since both are in singular, single company, single country".

It's the same with a group, a dozen and a lot. Would you use 'it' or 'they' after those?
But when I leave out the 'a' in group, should I use they?

It depends on the context. If the group does or is something collectively, then it is singular, e.g.
"the orchestra is good, it plays well", not "the orchestra are good, they play well"
"the team has done well, it reached the top of the league", not "the team have done well, they reached the top of the league".

However, if the members of the group have done something individually, it should be plural, e.g.
"The orchestra have left their seats and are clearing their instruments away"
"A group of travellers went to the store. They bought lutefisk by the kilo."

The groups here are not acting as a group, they are acting individually within a group.


Although, "They" can be used for both singular or plural, where gender comes into play, as previously mentioned, to replace "He/She" or "his/hers", to avoid offense (sexism, refering only to male things, etc.)
It is not strictly correct to use "they" for genderless subjects; however it is common and increasingly acceptable to replace "it" with "they" if it is some sort of organisation,

[sapi]

I believe this usage differs somewhat between US and correct English, in that we tend to use the singular form for collective nouns, whereas they use plural.

US English-The mob! They are coming!

English-The mob! It is coming!

The us version just sounds wrong - you don't say (well, at least here) "help! The mob are coming!"

@xdeathfire - i agree

[ajaxfetish]

To take it back to the country question, the United States is generally looked upon as a single entity these days, in spite of its original collective nature, but what about other nations with plural names, such as The Bahamas. Would you choose to refer to The Bahamas as 'it' or 'they'? I'm not sure the country thing is set in stone enough to say a country will always be singular.

Ajax

[sapi]

In english it is.

imho, all countries should be referred to in the singular

[English assassin]

This is one of those grammar maven questions where the rule is there is no rule. Just be consistent in your own usage. A company is a singular entity, and so would be an "it", but in fact so long as you are internally consistent you are correct. Even in legal drafting no one cares. After all, are you really goign to find out if a business is a company (singular) or a partnership (technically plural in England, singular IIRC in scotland)? Duke Malcolm has probably got the strict grammar right, but in practice that is not English as she is spoke.

I would agree that it sounds odd to refer to a country as opposed to its inhabitants in the plural though.

Getting its and it's wrong, on the other hand, really annoys me.