Online Petition of Patch Buglist

[Lusted]

Look at it this way, how many people still play the rome campiagn, very few, hundreds still play online. That shows what keeps a game going.

Many thousands still play the RTW campaign actually.

[Caesar Vastator]

Many thousands still play the RTW campaign actually.

The vanilla campaign (from what i know) is played by very few people (like new person that have bought Rome recently). Many thousands still play Rome campaign, but modded (not vanilla). The multyplayer, though vanilla, its played by a lot of people (sometimes more than medieval2) from what i can see. THis because MP Rome 1.5 its a lot better than Med2 1.1

[Titan of Gaul]

Fair point, I didn't think of mods, they do deserve credit, but CA need to worry about their game, the vast number of mods, as well as being brilliant, show the demand for more, not that this is a bad thing, yet the vanilla mp still gets played, despite the mods. I am not out to slate the CA or m2, only that the lag caused makes playing games very hard and not enjoyable. Personnally I prefer Rome anyway, but the point me and others are trying to get accross is the lag. Inbalances are unfortunate, but they do not stop the game being played.

[Orda Khan]

There are many thousands who still play vanilla campaigns, have no intention of using a mod, who probably have no idea that modded games exist even. There are thousands of TW fans that never visit this site or .Com for that matter and who probably have never installed a patch.
Consider the number of TW games purchased and then take a look at the size of the MP community, throughout the series. The community we did have was lost thanks to RTW and it has not been rescued by M2TW, but how many people are we talking about? A couple of hundred? The last petition was signed by quite a few who were not 'active' and that one contained only a few hundred names. The MP community had different opinions on the game anyway, so CA would have a pretty difficult time satisfying everyone.
My advice is play the game and have fun win or lose. If you want balance, fairness, no exploits and an equal chance, take up chess

......Orda

[Monarch]

the community we did have was lost thanks to RTW and it has not been rescued by M2TW,

Umm, when was the last time you looked into the current community? Theres a tourney running atm that has 36 dedicated clans signed up. Even some of them are clans even your greatness may consider worthy. Older clans such as Elite Force, RTK, Aggony and Kenchi battle with old Rome clans and even new ones that sprung up with the birth of m2.

Theres a community out there and sure its not as big as Warcraft 3 of Company of Heroes, but its dedicated to wanting to play tw. Its the game not the community where theres a problem (well, for the most part..)

[Titan of Gaul]

Well said Monarch, I am in one of those clans, and being in such a good community really enhances the enjoyment I get out of this game. We are not saying that we are more than the sp community, only that we are here, and we feel if CA are going to make a game that features mp, then do it well like they did with Rome.

[guyfawkes5]

Sock it to 'em Monarch! ;)

In these sort of conversations I usually draw the correct conclusion by getting Stig's pro-CA blather and Elmo's anti-CA propaganda and finding the middle ground between them. It amuses me no end that two such opinions can co-exist in the same forum; according to Stiggles the MP community should all chip in and 'make the game themselves' while CA rivals the Pope in infallablity, while Elmo maintains CA is headed up by the Emperor from Star Wars, who never passes up an opportunity to show the two fingers to the older fans of TW. I know this isn't really helping, I just find the two contrasting extremes of opinion in the mulitplayer community funny (certainly my two examples aren't the only ones, I just mentioned them because I hoped they wouldn't mind as they are such easy going fellows). :)

My own personal opinion would fall mostly with Lusted; that as long as you talk the language of business and are somewhat civil towards CA, they are always open to change as long as they see the venture as profitable (a lot of people forget that CA is still a business at the end of the day). Perhaps it is the dwindling size of the multiplayer community that persuades them that development isn't worthwhile, although you might be better asking Lusted or Pala on that one seeing as they're obviously better qualified. :)

[Titan of Gaul]

We are by no means having a go at them for the fun of it, we apprieciate that it isn't easy, but only ask that they sort out the game so it is at least playable to an extent where it isnt a struggle, and where units react WHEN u tell them NOT five minutes later. I would really like to see 6 CA employes attempt a 3 vs 3 on 10k, and see if they think the lag is acceptable.

[guyfawkes5]

We are by no means having a go at them for the fun of it, we apprieciate that it isn't easy, but only ask that they sort out the game so it is at least playable to an extent where it isnt a struggle, and where units react WHEN u tell them NOT five minutes later. I would really like to see 6 CA employes attempt a 3 vs 3 on 10k, and see if they think the lag is acceptable.

I'm not sure if that was intended as a response to me or not; I simply pointed out the two extremes of opinion present in these forums and then outlined my own views, that CA are still out to make profit at the end of the day and while a community's support, while always appreciated, will always come second place to the almighty dollar. I certainly never implied that you guys are having a go at CA for 'laughs'.

Although I believe lag is something they are sorting out (or at the very least attempting to) in the upcoming patch, so why not just wait until after you've actually seen the patch to complain?

[Titan of Gaul]

I agree with you, it isn't my petition, but I agree entirely with what the people who wrote it are saying. But simply looking at the fix list, there is fairly little to do with mp, which I think is far worse than sp, which I think is enjoyable, without to many bugs.

[guyfawkes5]

I believe it is because CA divides its resources proportionately to market needs. Since CA believes the multiplayer community is a minority consumer of their game when compared to the customers who play mostly or only singleplayer campaign, they will obviously put more effort into improving the singleplayer rather than the multiplayer portion of their product. Again the laws of business and money-making come in here.

[Fenix7]

History repeating itself?

[Lusted]

My own personal opinion would fall mostly with Lusted; that as long as you talk the language of business and are somewhat civil towards CA, they are always open to change as long as they see the venture as profitable (a lot of people forget that CA is still a business at the end of the day).

That is the point i am trying to get across. If you are not civil they wont lsiten to you. If you dont point out how helping the mp community will help them they wont listen. If you word things well, if your polite, if you mix in praise amongst your criticisms, and point how it might help make them money, they mgiht listen to you.

[Stig]

Next to to what Lusted just said, you also have to keep this in minds:
CA knows how to sell a game. They've made models. They know they make (example) $1,000,000 when they make a SP game, and they know they keep the fans. They know they will only make $250,000 if they make it for MP only (BF2 for example). If they make the game bug-free and they sell les then they thought they will lose much money. If they spend less on making it bug-free they release a game with some bugs, but they atleast know if they have the money to fix it. CA knows this, they keep it in mind. Fans don't, they want the game they like, and CA can't please anyone, some fans just don't see it, and want everything that way, since they spend $50.- on the game. Well imo you can call those persons whiners, as they're whining, but they don't see it.

BTW Guy:
I'm not Pro-CA, I'm as anti-CA as Elmo is, I'm just anti-anti-anti-whining kids. And if I have to choose between whining kids and CA, my choice will be CA.

[guyfawkes5]

If they make the game bug-free and they sell les then they thought they will lose much money. If they spend less on making it bug-free they release a game with some bugs, but they atleast know if they have the money to fix it.

Alright Stiggles, you lost me there...

BTW Guy:
I'm not Pro-CA, I'm as anti-CA as Elmo is, I'm just anti-anti-anti-whining kids. And if I have to choose between whining kids and CA, my choice will be CA.

That argument you had with Toxic says otherwise... plus the many others you had with non 'whiny kid' opposition.

[Stig]

Alright Stiggles, you lost me there...

I'll repeat it:
CA makes a game.
They don't know how much money they will make.
They can spend (say) $200,000 on making it completely bug-free.
However they don't know if they make enough to still make profit.
So they don't spend the $200,000.
Instead they release the game with some bugs left (as it's not only impossible to get all the bugs out, they also don't know if they get it back).
Then they see they made enough profit so they can easely get the bugs out.
And they do.


BTW Toxic was whining, he ain't a kid tho

[guyfawkes5]

And the point I make is that $200,000 is nowhere near the amount of money CA would spend making the game free of all bugs (obviously they would be forgiven for leaving in the very minor ones) is the money the staff's wages. It's not like they would have to buy anything new to fix the bugs, just pay the guys they have already to focus specifically on 'perfecting' the game. In fact, the bulk of the money they would lose is in the lost sales from the delay of the games release, and I would say that is the reason CA is reluctant to invest heavily in testing and bug-fixing pre-release.

I wouldn't want to estimate how much money CA would spend on ridding the game of all its major bugs as I simply would have no clue as to where to start; nowhere near as high as $200,000 though.

[guyfawkes5]

Damn my lack of an edit feature...

BTW Toxic was whining, he ain't a kid tho

Actually to my mind you defended yourself pretty pathetically in that thread; but maybe I should call Toxic in here, as he's a member here too...

[Stig]

As said 200,000 was an example.
Next to that I now know how CA beta-testing and bug solving works (since I had contact with a Beta-tester pre-release ... further info on that is classified ). And it's not as easy as you think. CA doesn't stick much time in beta-testing, all has to be done in a very strict schedule, as the game was ready too late. CA doesn't like releasing the game too late. So it would be spending alot on quicker testing or releasing late ... you can argue with that but it's a fact

[guyfawkes5]

Stiggles, I was just making the point that the money CA would be losing through longer testing would be in the thousands and not the hundreds of thousands you were implying, and it's not that much to such a large company in the wider picture.

And I find it hilarious how you come around and eventually retort with what I have been saying all along; that the reason CA didn't test for bugs more is because they didn't want to delay it's release (rather than the money spent on bug-finding not being 'worth it'). Nice one Stigglet, your debating skills come through again.

[Orda Khan]

Umm, when was the last time you looked into the current community? Theres a tourney running atm that has 36 dedicated clans signed up. Even some of them are clans ]even your greatness may consider worthy.

Really monarch, when will you grow up? You have this idea I think I am above the MP community and you add sarcasm to every reply, it's amusing really. I was merely pointing out that the MP community is even smaller now than it was in STW at its height. So small that even with non active players signing a petition, there were still only a few hundred names. Having followed various discussions back then, even those who signed could not agree on loads of things. So who do CA listen to? Would you invest manhours in a project to please a couple of hundred people for ... maybe two years, when your customer base is a million or so? I'm sure there are thousands who are blissfully unaware of the 'push through' bug.
Or like Aonar said ...

History repeating itself?

Its the game not the community where theres a problem (well, for the most part..)

Well there you go again, I guess you just can't help yourself, heh. Sure, I agree with you. That has always been the case and I don't see anything changing fast

........Orda

[Stig]

Stiggles, I was just making the point that the money CA would be losing through longer testing would be in the thousands and not the hundreds of thousands you were implying, and it's not that much to such a large company in the wider picture.

It was an example, I don't know the figures, if that's the only argument you have against me it's you who's lacking debating skills , besides if you want to attack me do it somewhere else, this isn't the place, end

that the reason CA didn't test for bugs more is because they didn't want to delay it's release

I've been saying that all along, I thought you read my discussion with Toxic, ah well, guess you're still the same


End discussion with Guy.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Sock it to 'em Monarch! ;)

In these sort of conversations I usually draw the correct conclusion by getting Stig's pro-CA blather and Elmo's anti-CA propaganda and finding the middle ground between them. It amuses me no end that two such opinions can co-exist in the same forum; according to Stiggles the MP community should all chip in and 'make the game themselves' while CA rivals the Pope in infallablity, while Elmo maintains CA is headed up by the Emperor from Star Wars, who never passes up an opportunity to show the two fingers to the older fans of TW. I know this isn't really helping, I just find the two contrasting extremes of opinion in the mulitplayer community funny (certainly my two examples aren't the only ones, I just mentioned them because I hoped they wouldn't mind as they are such easy going fellows). :)

My own personal opinion would fall mostly with Lusted; that as long as you talk the language of business and are somewhat civil towards CA, they are always open to change as long as they see the venture as profitable (a lot of people forget that CA is still a business at the end of the day). Perhaps it is the dwindling size of the multiplayer community that persuades them that development isn't worthwhile, although you might be better asking Lusted or Pala on that one seeing as they're obviously better qualified. :)

There will be no "sock it to anyone" here. Differences of opinion are to be expected and respected. There appears to be a perception by some that some of the older MP players are condescending toward the newer. That is not the case, they are not claiming to be better, however they have more experience in dealing with these MP issues. I suggest trying to find common ground rather than a divisive one.

[guyfawkes5]

Since when is disagreeing with someone 'attacking' them?

I've been saying that all along,

No not really Stig, you originally said CA don't fix bugs because they want to spend as little money as possible in case they don't make enough profit on the release of their game and thus it's like hedging their bets. Here's what you said:

They can spend (say) $200,000 on making it completely bug-free.
However they don't know if they make enough to still make profit.
So they don't spend the $200,000.

if that's the only argument you have against me it's you who's lacking debating skills

Well you converted to my other argument, as pointed out above.

I thought you read my discussion with Toxic, ah well, guess you're still the same

I don't fully recall what you said since it was so long ago, although if it was as pathetic as your argument here I think that's a good thing.

End discussion with Guy.

Oh alright, but only because you say so. ;)

There will be no "sock it to anyone" here. Differences of opinion are to be expected and respected. There appears to be a perception by some that some of the older MP players are condescending toward the newer. That is not the case, they are not claiming to be better, however they have more experience in dealing with these MP issues. I suggest trying to find common ground rather than a divisive one.

My apologies, although it was meant as more of a cheer of the current MP community rather than a derision of said poster's opinions (and also I did find the 'common ground' in that argument). :)

[Papewaio]

Petitions (which are generally ignored) have to be:
Polite
Focused
Witty
Factual
Repeatable Examples if possible.

Based on this thread , I get flashbacks to Shogun and "The enemy general runs like a whipped dog."

At least hippies would state:

"What do we want" ... insert appropriate slogan
"When do we want"... insert pseudo-realistic time.

If you can't convince each other in a mature manner what is the hope of convincing CA? Unless you are all SEGA shareholders that is...

[Puzz3D]

If you can't convince each other in a mature manner what is the hope of convincing CA?

There is no hope of convincing CA to put more resources into the multiplayer. Gil Jaysmith said 15% of the resources went into RTW multiplayer, and that was more than it warranted. MTW/VI v2.01 still has network code problems. After the MTW v1.1 patch, VI v2.0 and VI v2.01 patch, it's still not right. RTW still has problems, and that's after RTW v1.1, v1.2, v1.3 and v1.5 patches.

[Titan of Gaul]

Looking at the Rome petition, many of the highlighted problems I never knew of, as I started playing at 1.5, so they clearly did something about it, Rome has very few issues now I feel.

[Denali]

There is no other game like total war. There are other strategy games like the Age of Empires Series, Age of Mythology, Warcraf, Company of Heroes, Commander and Conquer and tons of other great games.


But there is no other game where you play epic battles with houndreds of units in the same way you do in the tw serie.....


I hope CA will exploit its full potitential one day with some kind of "Total War Online" game.... But its really hard to stay keep faith, I love the tw series, i really love them but i understand pll like barrett who quit.

[Stig]

You said it Denali, CA is on its own, they have no opponents, they don't have to make a good MP, this is the only game you can buy to fight epic battles like these. It's either this or nothing, and since fans are still going for this CA doesn't have to change it's "tactics".

[Paolai]

fact is that they are loosing tons of potential customers. Warcraft had many customers, WOW a lot more, and it is only MP. CA has difficulties to understand that the future for games is only MP and not SP.