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Thread: Teutonic order in XL

  1. #31

    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    The almohads are very far away. Once in Vanilla I tried a "distanced aragonese Empire" through crusades, namely, launching one against... Estonia, I think. The idea was to load a prince into the crusade and, if Castile wiped me out in the Iberian peninsula, keep fighting from the north. It failed. When the AI noticed I was loading troops into a crusade, the moment it left it struck, leaving me defending my stronghold in Navarre (specifically picked to hold out in case THAT happened). They invaded there too the following year, the crusade was crushed, and my faction was annihilated.

    If I were you I´d concentrate on building yourself a "safe homeland" before going on crusading adventures.

    In territories without choke points, I like to leave token garrisons that can retreat to the keep and hold out for a long time (unless they get assaulted... a good reason for improving the defenses in those provinces), and a big army in the center, large enough to scare the invaders away if possible, and with a mobile unit combination that gives you versatility and speed when attacking.
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  2. #32
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Well the best role-playing option is to go on the crusade that the pope called for and ignore the impending horde attack. You’d only have to put a small initial force in your crusading army and make sure you travel as close to Rome as possible for the higher zeal. It would also be a good idea to have a powerful attacking fleet to shadow your army in case things get rough.


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  3. #33
    Member Member Maximillian von Hapsburg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Hmmm, I was wondering if I could start doing a li'l bit of modding myself - I could make it so both Teutonic Order and HRE can train them - but they can only be produced in Pomerania and Prussia, sooo I can face the challenge of conquering the TO so I can make their knights xD

    Well, maybe...
    I charged the Swiss pikemen with chivalric knights.


  4. #34
    Member Member Maximillian von Hapsburg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Looks good, Kurt. However if you like doing the TO historical RP style you probably won't send out a crusade. Not to be a nuisance, but the TKs originated as sick care people in the Holy Land, then went military, moved to Hungary to help King Andrew subjugate the Cumans, got kicked out, stayed in the Baltic area and got owned mostly and also won a few times and managed to get through the seige of Marienburg aka Malbork, so I don't think they properly crusaded in the Holy Land, just in the Baltic.

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    I charged the Swiss pikemen with chivalric knights.


  5. #35
    " Hammer of the East" Member King Kurt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    i must admit that when role playing a faction I try to capture the feel of the faction as opposed to doggedly folllow their actions. So with the Teutonic Order that would be subdueing Estonia, Lithuania and Prussia, conflict with Novgorod, not attacking Catholics and crusading where possible. I know that the Order never went to Spain, but they did go to NE Europe in response to a request from the Pope, so why not - at least Granada will be warm!!
    From a game point of view, I am interested in what would happen to a Crusade which travels across the map - how big could it get with just the troops attracted to it?
    "Some people say MTW is a matter of life or death - but you have to realise it is more important than that"
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  6. #36
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Technically, the TO never "launched a crusade". Their entire existance in the Baltic untill the 1380-ies when the Lithuanians became catholics was a crusade. Launching a crusade as the TO would be quite ahistoric and unrealistic. It is as if a crusade had been launched from Jerusalem (once in catholic hands, that is).
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  7. #37
    Passionate MTW peasant Member Deus ret.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Quote Originally Posted by Innocentius
    It is as if a crusade had been launched from Jerusalem (once in catholic hands, that is).
    Well, such a thing is encouraged on the part of the game, or how else does one explain the +1v bonus for...templars? hospitallers? don't remember exactly... anyway, the bonus for one unbuildable crusader knight type in Palestine (in vanilla)? They appear solely in crusades, so you'll probably have to launch one from there to get it.

    So....why not launch a crusade FROM the Baltics? IIRC Prussia has a bonus for Teutonic Knights which are also unbuildable in vanilla.

    Quote Originally Posted by King Kurt
    From a game point of view, I am interested in what would happen to a Crusade which travels across the map - how big could it get with just the troops attracted to it?
    Quite big, although there seems to be a kind of 'bloat' effect too, meaning that there's a certain point when they don't get bigger. At least that's my vague impression, the only time I did such a thing was when I sent a crusade from Aragon to conquer Prussia from the heathens, but especially to put a check on the rampant Russian expansion. By the time it reached Brandenburg, the last 50+%-zeal province, it had already remained stagnant for two or three provinces and was at around ~3000 men IIRC.

    This impression is much stronger in MedMod where crusades start out with 700-1000 men. Since almost all my governors get the 'fanatic' line of traits when I'm catholic, zeal rates are usually floating at 90-100% throughout Early, so crusades gather an awesome amount of men in an impressively short span of time. But they, too, don't grow beyond around 3000 men. In my experience at least....any other observations?
    Vexilla Regis prodeunt Inferni.

  8. #38
    " Hammer of the East" Member King Kurt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    I launched the crusade, bound for Granada. The Pope was pleased and did not charge me. I got to Tyrolia and the Crusade was growing nicely - into its second stack - despite the fact I had not added any troops to it. Then Granada fell - presumably to the Spainish - and the Crusade disbanded. Shame really, I fancied a side show as things are relatively quiet in my corner of the world - the lull before the Horde storm. Oh well - such is life!

    As for the campaign - I am writing it up for Pics and History of your empire and will post soon.
    I will post a mechanics version in this thread as well.
    Last edited by King Kurt; 03-08-2007 at 09:29.
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  9. #39
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Excellent, Kurt! Can't wait to read it.
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  10. #40
    " Hammer of the East" Member King Kurt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    As promised, a technical breakdown of my opening moves. For a more stirring narrative, see Pics and history of my Empire!!
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=977

    Move 1 - Queue inn, order foot, invade Lithuania with King, both order foot, xbow. As the Lithuanians send half their army to Volhynia, you win easily and in my game I also captured the Lithuanian King. if you don't, you will get him next move as he will be in the castle. As I got him move 1 - 10,000+ florin ransom, thank you very much!!
    Move 2 - finish inn, queue another order foot, move order foot from Livonia to Lithuanaia, storm fort in Lithuania - another 2,500 florins in the bank.

    You now have a healthy bank balance and you have subdued your agressive neighbour to the south. My inclination is to leave them alone in Volhynia to prevent reemergences and to act as a barrier to the Poles. You should also get a few offers of alliances in - I always take them all, but have people I want to keep sweet - in this instance it is the Danes and the Russians.
    Over the next few moves I built an emissary and added Estonia and Prussia to my empire by bribes - the cost is worth it as you have a built in garrison with the troops you bribed. I had one small revolt in Estonia and a couple in Prussia, but the locals with a little assistance put these down. I also had attracted several mercs to the inn in Livonia so they were signed up to beef up my forces - again I only go for quality here. So a gradual expansion and regrouping is called for.
    I then probably made a small mistake. I bribed Smolensk - which was promptedly invaded by Novgorod - so I lost it preety quick. However, this did create my next enemy so I invaded Novgorod itself - ironically, their forces were split as they had taken Smolensk. My army was quite strong now - 2 or 3 Knight units care of the King and Princes, order foot, halbs, arbs, CMAA etc - so I defeated Novgorod in 2/3 years. Again, after a war - a period of regrouping. Else where I had been teching up my empire in the normal way - put a fleet in the Baltic, started a bit of trade - not the tresure chest of vanilla MTW/VI, but not bad - and a sprinkling of happy buildings. Also in this campaign I have been refitting units more than I ever did in vanilla - it seems more in pace with XL.
    So that takes me to about 1325 - I have a nice small empire, money is not bad, my army is strong - especially those 40 strong King/Prince knight units - and I have some strong alliances. Next up - look out, here comes the horde and a surprise war - but you have to wait for me to write that up first!!
    "Some people say MTW is a matter of life or death - but you have to realise it is more important than that"
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  11. #41

    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    I've only played as the Teutonics once and I found my campaign stagnated, it's difficult being a small faction at the best of times, but I found it especially difficult to expand as the Teutonics because of so many factions around me.

    Expanding against one faction would leave me open to another much to often, I conquered Estonia which was a miscalculation due to the sizable garrison needed and I found myself gripped in a war with Lithuania and Novgorod. I won most battles and occasionally occupied Lithuania itself, but simply didn't have the men to secure everything nor the economy to train the necessary armies. Since there was no interior to my empire I was vulnerable everywhere and a defeat would mean a lost province.

    I'm not an especially aggressive player, i'm more calculated, preparing as much as possible and then I become briefly ultra-aggressive and attempt to absorb factions in one swoop before they can retaliate or cripple them, forcing them to submit to me. It's extremely effective, but unsuited to factions as small as the Teutonics.

    If I had been more aggressive early on I may well have secured a small empire for myself to build from, but it just doesnt suit me very well so I ended up just quitting the game.

    Oddly despite some similarities I enjoy the crusader states, the big advantage they have though of course are some of the maps richest provinces.

  12. #42
    Passionate MTW peasant Member Deus ret.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Quote Originally Posted by _Aetius_
    Oddly despite some similarities I enjoy the crusader states, the big advantage they have though of course are some of the maps richest provinces.
    And an overwhelmingly powerful unit roster! The Egyptian / Turkish troops are no match for them, so it's possible to steamroll the Levante and kill off the Mamluks, as the AI usually does within 10-20 years. Once you've teched up to those knights no faction in the entire region will pose a threat anymore. Just don't fight in the sand....

    With the TO, it's somewhat trickier, agreed. What helped me out in times of severe dearth of money, troops etc. were the family cav units. They are awesome hands down, and they come in groups of 40. Very deadly. And also very awe-imspiring to enemies sometimes they retreated when I personally didn't see a real chance of winning the battle because of insurmountable odds - all I fielded were two knights and two order foot against over 600 troops in one case.
    Vexilla Regis prodeunt Inferni.

  13. #43
    " Hammer of the East" Member King Kurt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    Martok

    As there is now a XL guide sub section - any chance of moving this to there???
    "Some people say MTW is a matter of life or death - but you have to realise it is more important than that"
    With apologies to Bill Shankly

    My first balloon - for "On this day in History"

  14. #44
    Member Member Satyros's Avatar
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    Default Re: Teutonic order in XL

    The key to my success in the opening of the game as TO was an early attack ( I can't remember exactly when , but between 3rd-5th turn ) on the capital of the Novgorods , followed by a defence against their forces from smolensk , and a counter attack in smolensk , thus wiping the Novgorods until the 7th turn ( I think ) , after that I wiped out the Lithuanians and made me a solid base of operations on the Baltic , including Prussia if I remember correctly .

    Before I had a chance to regroup and retrain ( yes I do that , I try not to merge the units , unless in dire need {for example , the Golden Horde } ) the Swedish attacked resulting in their loss of Finland , and simultaneously the Russians attacked forcing me to abandon smolensk in a tactical consilidation move in Lithuania and the Novgorod Capital , keeping the enemy forces out of reach of my capital , Livonia . By then Estonia was a Danish provnce , and a thorn in my side .

    While defending my provinces against the masses of Russian horse archers ( where I found that the combination of halberdiers and pavise crossbowmen completely rocks ), occasionaly having to withdraw in my castle in Livonia under attacks of the Swedish , I slowly tried to built ( and have it survive for more than a turn ) some ships so not to present so provocatively my kingdom's underbelly to the greedy ( for my lands ) Swedish and concentrate on my defenses against the russians .

    Soon after that the Golden Horde arrived and beat the Russian to a pulp , giving me some turns of non hostility with them and eventually a peace treaty with them , on the face of the onslaught that was the Golden Horde . Meanwhile the defeated Swedes were being conquered by the Danes , so in an act of " evil " and because I had wed all my sons to Swede maidens , I decided to help them a bit , and by crusading succesfully against them I removed them from Estonia and Denmark and left them straned somewhere in Germany .

    The rest is a history full of crusades against the Golden Horde , and the occasional excommunicated enemy of the faith , I have received lots and lots of money from the Pope .

    The point of this story is : CAPTURE NOVGOROD EARLY IN THE GAME ! You will really need the Citadel early in the game. Train as much pavise guys as possible , a healthy mix of pavise crossbowmen ( faster reload rate ) and pavise arbalesters ( chews heavy cavalry ) will ensure that you will endure most battles , and will force any and all horse archer armies to withdraw or die .

    At least at Expert level .

    Satyros
    Smell the battle in the wind, before you see us.Winterhorde of furyride, the wind will lead us.

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