Teutonic order in XL

[Martok]

Just to quick throw in my two cents here:

I second Deus ret. and Innocentius in that you shouldn't bother with Estonia at first. Until you're stronger and are in a better position, the province isn't worth conquering or bribing. (That goes for any faction, by the way; not just the TO.)

I've only tried playing the Order once, but I can tell you that expanding east into Lithiuania and Russian steps (including Novgorod) worked pretty well for me. I admittedly never considered taking Sweden, though. It's probably worth thinking about, depending on how close you want to roleplay.

[King Kurt]

Had a quick look today - Bribing Estonia seems not a bad idea - it took 2 goes, but did it for just over 2,000 florins. Estonia is well placed to produce some cheap troops for bulking things up/ garrisons etc and by bribing there is no destruction of infrastructure. Invading sweden seems more difficult - there is a swedish fleet in the baltic from day 1, so that has to be removed before invasion, which means 1, prefereably 2 fleets and I don't think you have time early game to do this - maybe an option after 10-20 years.
On all accounts, your first unit should be an emissary, even if you do not intend to bribe Estonia, you still need to do some diplomacy. After that some cheap but good infantry - halberdiers, arbs, order foot maybe. Your hiers coming through will help the cav. A ship for some trade looks advisable - and it helps secure your coast as well.
I will return when the campaign gets going.
Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

[Odin]

Had a quick look today - Bribing Estonia seems not a bad idea - it took 2 goes, but did it for just over 2,000 florins. Estonia is well placed to produce some cheap troops for bulking things up/ garrisons etc and by bribing there is no destruction of infrastructure. Invading sweden seems more difficult - there is a swedish fleet in the baltic from day 1, so that has to be removed before invasion, which means 1, prefereably 2 fleets and I don't think you have time early game to do this - maybe an option after 10-20 years.
On all accounts, your first unit should be an emissary, even if you do not intend to bribe Estonia, you still need to do some diplomacy. After that some cheap but good infantry - halberdiers, arbs, order foot maybe. Your hiers coming through will help the cav. A ship for some trade looks advisable - and it helps secure your coast as well.
I will return when the campaign gets going.
Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

I personally think you made the right decision with Estonia, while others dont concur with the decision, the goal i had with the order was to increase lands as fast as possible. Estonia can be had in the first 5 turns of the game. It is rebellious but its certainly a containable situation, and if it isnt a big money maker it does at least provide you with another troop producer early in the game.

the swedish expidition is a 20 year endevor, if i recall you dont have a dock or a boat builder and thats 10 years right there, then you have to build a fleet and then you have to defeat the swedish fleet. All the while the swedes may infact be beefing up, although 9 times out of 10 they move to Finland if it isnt taken by novgorod.

the main problem your going to have is cash flow because building a trade fleet isnt cheap, plus once the heirs start rolling out thier maintence cost isnt cheap either. Thats why i say expand early if you can through bribing or military conquest because Livonia isnt going to generate enough income for you to execute one plan or the other.

To further the argument of estonia, if you dont take it someone else will. Aditionally if your lucky enough to take it right away you spend 10-20 turns on building boats in both provinces and you will have an easier go at taking the swedes. If I recall the long boat they have is faster then the boats you can build out of the gate, so you will need more then one to defeat that fleet.

Having two boat producing provinces in the baltic is a good start for conquest in the baltic.

[Kavhan Isbul]

As far as I remember Norway is rebel in high in XL. So instead of building boats you can simply bribe the rebels there and use Norway to build an inn and invade Sweden with a massive army of mercenaries. I am not sure if this would be easier to do, but it is a potentially faster way of getting Sweden (and one completely cheesy and anti-historical).

[Martok]

As far as I remember Norway is rebel in high in XL. So instead of building boats you can simply bribe the rebels there and use Norway to build an inn and invade Sweden with a massive army of mercenaries. I am not sure if this would be easier to do, but it is a potentially faster way of getting Sweden (and one completely cheesy and anti-historical).

The problem with bribing Norway early on is that it's extremely poor in terms of farm income (I think around 70 florins/year, IIRC). To make the province profitable takes a substantial investment of both florins and time, which as you know are two things that are in fairly short supply when playing as the Teutonic Order. You could possibly justify Norway as a troop-producer if you need it, but I would still doubt whether it would be a worthwhile venture.

Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

I certainly don't object to the idea, but it would really be up to frogbeastegg and TosaInu (if adding an actual subforum was involved). I'll PM Froggy see what she says.

In the meantime, however, we should probably find out who among us would be willing to write up the initial "how to" post for each XL faction. Because unlike MTW/VI where most of the guides for each faction were written up by Cheetah (except for a couple by ah_dut and TosaInu), I have a feeling there's very few of us - if any - that have played all the factions available in XL.

Hmm. I think I'll start a separate thread for this. I don't want to hijack this one and drag it off-topic.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I would not advise anyone to take Norway, unless this player already possesses a large fleet and a trading network stretching from the Baltic to Ireland, epsecially if it is a faction that cannot produce Vikings. I was simply suggesting that Norway can be used as a stepping stone to Sweden. The Teutonic Order has plenty of enemies, making it necessary to churn out troops in all possible provinces as there is usually at least a battle per turn, making it hard to devote any province to shipbuilding. With an Inn in Norway and some luck - plenty of mercenaries available, Sweden can be conquered even without a fleet. The initial hiring cost for the mercenaries will be high, but it will be similar to the cost of building a keep, a port and a wharf in Estonia for example, and will be offset by the pillaging in Sweden once the province falls. But I have to admit, I have never tried anything like that, and it may be a lot more difficult to do in practice than in theory, especially if mercenaries refuse to show up in the Inn in Norway.

[King Kurt]

Had another quick dabble and may have come up with a cunning plan for the first couple of moves - let's call it the Lithuania Blitzkreig, very appropiate for the Teutonic Order!!
I noticed that Lithuania splits its forces on move 1 to take Volhynia. So I decide to go for broke in move 1 and invade Lithuania with all I could gather. So I set taxes on auto - I always play with this on - ordered up a new unit of order foot and invaded Lithuania with all my forces - King +knights, 2 order foot and 1 xbow. Due to time limits I auto calced the battle - Lithuania had sent some troops to Volhnia as expected so we were about even in numbers, my 6 star vs his 7 star, but my troops were better - Teutonic knights vs Boyars, Order foot vs spears. I won the battle, they went into the castle. Next move, I order up another order foot - you need a 100 strong force for garisson reasons - move the order foot from Livonia into Lithuania and assault the castle. Again I autocalc and I am victorious - now comes the good bit - I get over 2,000 florins from pillage etc and over 10,000 florins from ransom of the Lithuanian King - so the bank balance looks very healthy and lithuania is taken, the remnents are left in Volhynia with no infrastructure and no money.
I didn't save as I had done it quickly and there were a few details to improve on - mainly assign titles and build an inn in Livonia. It would also be nice to fight out the actual field battle in Lithuania. - so I will start again and see how it works out. The cash means hopefully I can recover the losses from Mercs and bribe Estonia. Also I would leave the Lithuanians as a neutered force in Volhnia to prevent reemergencies. Sadly this will not be for a few days, but I will let you know how it goes. Any thoughts?

[Deus ret.]

When I played the TO my approach was to sit still for a couple of turns and wait how the conflicts in the neighbourhood develop. Especially the Lits are very aggressive early on and cause some upheaval in their surroundings. Because of the TO's superior military, no-one will attack them until some time in the game, so it's possible to wait for some easy pickings (and the waiting won't be long). Taking Lithuania early on expands borders considerably and might provoke further conlict with any of the bordering factions; besides it's also quite rebellious and takes some troops to subdue IIRC.

My suggestion would be to take Novgorod ASAP because it is quite rich and well-developed, making it possible and more sensible to get Estonia; in addition, you will stay away from the numerous wars further South.

[Martok]

Nice going King Kurt. I actually did virtually the same thing in my TO campaign, except I believe I waited a few years before invading Lithiuania. Good show, either way, though!

As for what to do next, I agree with Deus ret. that invading Novgorod is a viable option. It's reasonably built-up with decent income, and you can build a port there. In addition, it helps that you would be continuing to attack non-Catholics, which of course will make the Pope happy. Of course, you could attack some of the rebel provinces of the eastern steppes instead, but you should probably take out the Russian princes at the earliest opportunity.