Teutonic order in XL

[King Kurt]

I have just taken the plunge and loaded XL. For my first campaign, I am thinking about using the Teutonic Order - they look a challenging faction and I have always loved the film of Alexander Nevsky!!
So I wondered if anybody had any thoughts about them? I will be starting in High period and always play on hard level and GA. I suppose the advice could extend on how to grow small factions.
To get into character I am thinking about walking about the house with a white sheet wrapped round me and a coal scuttle on my head!!

[Deus ret.]

Good choice, especially with regard to their POWERFUL military, but a difficult one also, especially because you'll get into contact with the horde soon (which gave me a real hell). Your initial neighbours won't bother you exceedingly, especially the Lithuanians have excellent generals but will ruin themselves in wars with Poland and the Novs. You should exploit these early conflicts to your advantage, so grab Novgorod if the opportunity shows up. Leave Estonia for now, it'll require quite a bit of garrison which can be used more effectively elsewhere.

Since your position is somewhat precarious in the face of the Horde (and you have no rivers or heavily forested battlegrounds), try to grab an emergency refuge from which you can rebuild your forces - Sweden ist the best possible choice, it's rich, it's quite safe and it has iron! Get rid of the Danes if they prove to be too annoying but stop expansion before getting into a war with the HRE or any other major power. It's not really rewarding at this stage, and the East should occupy your attention by now. One you've weathered the Horde (or whenever you feel strong enough) take Prussia and hold unto it. The +1v Teutonic knights you'll get from there IIRC are among the best cav units in the entire game.

A word to GA. Your goals are limited, and so will be your points count, so you may have to resort to the domination option (I did so in my TO GA game because France had built an unsurpassable lead in the count). GA means turtling at least for some time, but since your holdings likely won't be particularly large it also means that your king's influence will be somewhat low most of the time, making it difficult to get good heirs. They partly make up for their generally meagre quality by being excellent fighting machines (you'll probably honor those uber 40-men bodyguard units) but don't really make up for a good dynasty. Well, maybe you have a better way of dealing with that than I do....

[Odin]

Since your position is somewhat precarious in the face of the Horde (and you have no rivers or heavily forested battlegrounds), try to grab an emergency refuge from which you can rebuild your forces - Sweden ist the best possible choice, it's rich, it's quite safe and it has iron!

I agree with this absolutely. I have played the order in the past and in my opinion you must expand somewhere and grow. Estonia is right next to you, but if you can afford it bribe them as i believe they have a 4 star general which might be useful.

Sweden is one of the better provinces in the game and certainly in northern europe/baltic area. If you can get it then do it, however I do not like to conquest against other catholic nations unless they have been ex communicated.

So its really a role play choice.

[Innocentius]

If you want to roleplay properly as the Teutonic Order: Loose 75% of all the battles and win 100% of all the sieges

[Deus ret.]

hey Odin, nice to still see you around! I just disagree in hindsight of Estonia, they're a rebellious lot and not subdued easily. So conquer them only if you can spare the men. Taking the province in the first couple of turns completely paralyzed my forces as they were tied up in suppressing the unrest in this dirt poor strip of land.

Taking Sweden is of course no good role-play but a strategically very sound decision. Without it, the Mongols will be somewhat tougher to beat since you'll have nowhere to retreat to....

[Odin]

hey Odin, nice to still see you around! I just disagree in hindsight of Estonia, they're a rebellious lot and not subdued easily. So conquer them only if you can spare the men. Taking the province in the first couple of turns completely paralyzed my forces as they were tied up in suppressing the unrest in this dirt poor strip of land.

Taking Sweden is of course no good role-play but a strategically very sound decision. Without it, the Mongols will be somewhat tougher to beat since you'll have nowhere to retreat to....

I am all in favor of taking sweden but its a strategic decision and not a historical/good game play one in my opinion. Sweden is a good first move, but if your not going to take it then by all means you must expand elsewhere. The immediate rebel provinces that border you should be the best place to start as in the XL mod, land is power, and land is florins.

Everything else in the baltic is a pain in the ass to grab and will take a big investment of new troops. Thats why I say if he has the florins, bribe estonia and take sweden, those three provinces together i believe give you 6 trading goods, 1 steel province and a copper mine.

From there you should be able to have sound footing for moving east.

[King Kurt]

Thanks guys - quick quality advice - just what I expect from the Main Hall. I like the idea of bribing Estonia - would that cut back the revolts? - Taking Sweden seems sound - but you need a fleet to do that, so not an imediate option. I don't start with an emisaary or a fleet, so to build both takes 4 years, which is a long time, early game, without building any troops.
Once I have a base, what next - crusades?
When I have a bit of a plan sorted, I will play and report back.

[Innocentius]

I'd advice you not to take Estonia at all untill you're already wealthy. It's a very small province with low income that really only offers you a second border to Novgorod. As already mentioned it's also prone to rebelling. In my Swedish campaign the loyalty was down to about 120% (Very High taxes) in the late 14th century. By then I had owned the province for 150 years and had 300 men in it, one of which was the Duke of Estonia, a 7-star bloke with 4 dread. If a famine occured (which it does frequently) loyalty dropped to about 80%, and this was in Normal.

[Kavhan Isbul]

The main challenge with the Teutonic Order initially is income - I have found it to be a greater challenge than the Horde. Grabbing provicnes quickly is important, as otherwise you will run out of chash pretty quickly. When playing with the Teutons I also rely on chepaer units (in terms of upkeep) such as arbalesters and militia sergeants to offset the high maintenance cost of the Teutonic Knights, which get spawned with every heir that matures. Taking Novgorod and then Muscovy helps a lot with the income situation and later on the Mongols insist of sending stack after stack to Muscovy from Volga Bulgaria, presenting you with the opportunitiy of an easy bridge defense. This is what has worked for me at least.

[Don Esteban]

I'd suggest roleplaying this faction and only attacking non-catholics or ex-commed factions. this might mean you have to set your own victory conditions such as eliminating all non-catholics. I just finished with the crusaders and it was one of the most enjoyable games I have ever played. Might have a go with the Teutons next!

[Martok]

Just to quick throw in my two cents here:

I second Deus ret. and Innocentius in that you shouldn't bother with Estonia at first. Until you're stronger and are in a better position, the province isn't worth conquering or bribing. (That goes for any faction, by the way; not just the TO.)

I've only tried playing the Order once, but I can tell you that expanding east into Lithiuania and Russian steps (including Novgorod) worked pretty well for me. I admittedly never considered taking Sweden, though. It's probably worth thinking about, depending on how close you want to roleplay.

[King Kurt]

Had a quick look today - Bribing Estonia seems not a bad idea - it took 2 goes, but did it for just over 2,000 florins. Estonia is well placed to produce some cheap troops for bulking things up/ garrisons etc and by bribing there is no destruction of infrastructure. Invading sweden seems more difficult - there is a swedish fleet in the baltic from day 1, so that has to be removed before invasion, which means 1, prefereably 2 fleets and I don't think you have time early game to do this - maybe an option after 10-20 years.
On all accounts, your first unit should be an emissary, even if you do not intend to bribe Estonia, you still need to do some diplomacy. After that some cheap but good infantry - halberdiers, arbs, order foot maybe. Your hiers coming through will help the cav. A ship for some trade looks advisable - and it helps secure your coast as well.
I will return when the campaign gets going.
Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

[Odin]

Had a quick look today - Bribing Estonia seems not a bad idea - it took 2 goes, but did it for just over 2,000 florins. Estonia is well placed to produce some cheap troops for bulking things up/ garrisons etc and by bribing there is no destruction of infrastructure. Invading sweden seems more difficult - there is a swedish fleet in the baltic from day 1, so that has to be removed before invasion, which means 1, prefereably 2 fleets and I don't think you have time early game to do this - maybe an option after 10-20 years.
On all accounts, your first unit should be an emissary, even if you do not intend to bribe Estonia, you still need to do some diplomacy. After that some cheap but good infantry - halberdiers, arbs, order foot maybe. Your hiers coming through will help the cav. A ship for some trade looks advisable - and it helps secure your coast as well.
I will return when the campaign gets going.
Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

I personally think you made the right decision with Estonia, while others dont concur with the decision, the goal i had with the order was to increase lands as fast as possible. Estonia can be had in the first 5 turns of the game. It is rebellious but its certainly a containable situation, and if it isnt a big money maker it does at least provide you with another troop producer early in the game.

the swedish expidition is a 20 year endevor, if i recall you dont have a dock or a boat builder and thats 10 years right there, then you have to build a fleet and then you have to defeat the swedish fleet. All the while the swedes may infact be beefing up, although 9 times out of 10 they move to Finland if it isnt taken by novgorod.

the main problem your going to have is cash flow because building a trade fleet isnt cheap, plus once the heirs start rolling out thier maintence cost isnt cheap either. Thats why i say expand early if you can through bribing or military conquest because Livonia isnt going to generate enough income for you to execute one plan or the other.

To further the argument of estonia, if you dont take it someone else will. Aditionally if your lucky enough to take it right away you spend 10-20 turns on building boats in both provinces and you will have an easier go at taking the swedes. If I recall the long boat they have is faster then the boats you can build out of the gate, so you will need more then one to defeat that fleet.

Having two boat producing provinces in the baltic is a good start for conquest in the baltic.

[Kavhan Isbul]

As far as I remember Norway is rebel in high in XL. So instead of building boats you can simply bribe the rebels there and use Norway to build an inn and invade Sweden with a massive army of mercenaries. I am not sure if this would be easier to do, but it is a potentially faster way of getting Sweden (and one completely cheesy and anti-historical).

[Martok]

As far as I remember Norway is rebel in high in XL. So instead of building boats you can simply bribe the rebels there and use Norway to build an inn and invade Sweden with a massive army of mercenaries. I am not sure if this would be easier to do, but it is a potentially faster way of getting Sweden (and one completely cheesy and anti-historical).

The problem with bribing Norway early on is that it's extremely poor in terms of farm income (I think around 70 florins/year, IIRC). To make the province profitable takes a substantial investment of both florins and time, which as you know are two things that are in fairly short supply when playing as the Teutonic Order. You could possibly justify Norway as a troop-producer if you need it, but I would still doubt whether it would be a worthwhile venture.

Martok - the Guide section of the forums only cover the original game + VI - what about developing a sub thread/ section of the guides for "mod" factions like the Teutons, Serbs, Cumans etc. This thread and the challenges of XL thread would be a good start. What do you think?

I certainly don't object to the idea, but it would really be up to frogbeastegg and TosaInu (if adding an actual subforum was involved). I'll PM Froggy see what she says.

In the meantime, however, we should probably find out who among us would be willing to write up the initial "how to" post for each XL faction. Because unlike MTW/VI where most of the guides for each faction were written up by Cheetah (except for a couple by ah_dut and TosaInu), I have a feeling there's very few of us - if any - that have played all the factions available in XL.

Hmm. I think I'll start a separate thread for this. I don't want to hijack this one and drag it off-topic.

[Kavhan Isbul]

I would not advise anyone to take Norway, unless this player already possesses a large fleet and a trading network stretching from the Baltic to Ireland, epsecially if it is a faction that cannot produce Vikings. I was simply suggesting that Norway can be used as a stepping stone to Sweden. The Teutonic Order has plenty of enemies, making it necessary to churn out troops in all possible provinces as there is usually at least a battle per turn, making it hard to devote any province to shipbuilding. With an Inn in Norway and some luck - plenty of mercenaries available, Sweden can be conquered even without a fleet. The initial hiring cost for the mercenaries will be high, but it will be similar to the cost of building a keep, a port and a wharf in Estonia for example, and will be offset by the pillaging in Sweden once the province falls. But I have to admit, I have never tried anything like that, and it may be a lot more difficult to do in practice than in theory, especially if mercenaries refuse to show up in the Inn in Norway.

[King Kurt]

Had another quick dabble and may have come up with a cunning plan for the first couple of moves - let's call it the Lithuania Blitzkreig, very appropiate for the Teutonic Order!!
I noticed that Lithuania splits its forces on move 1 to take Volhynia. So I decide to go for broke in move 1 and invade Lithuania with all I could gather. So I set taxes on auto - I always play with this on - ordered up a new unit of order foot and invaded Lithuania with all my forces - King +knights, 2 order foot and 1 xbow. Due to time limits I auto calced the battle - Lithuania had sent some troops to Volhnia as expected so we were about even in numbers, my 6 star vs his 7 star, but my troops were better - Teutonic knights vs Boyars, Order foot vs spears. I won the battle, they went into the castle. Next move, I order up another order foot - you need a 100 strong force for garisson reasons - move the order foot from Livonia into Lithuania and assault the castle. Again I autocalc and I am victorious - now comes the good bit - I get over 2,000 florins from pillage etc and over 10,000 florins from ransom of the Lithuanian King - so the bank balance looks very healthy and lithuania is taken, the remnents are left in Volhynia with no infrastructure and no money.
I didn't save as I had done it quickly and there were a few details to improve on - mainly assign titles and build an inn in Livonia. It would also be nice to fight out the actual field battle in Lithuania. - so I will start again and see how it works out. The cash means hopefully I can recover the losses from Mercs and bribe Estonia. Also I would leave the Lithuanians as a neutered force in Volhnia to prevent reemergencies. Sadly this will not be for a few days, but I will let you know how it goes. Any thoughts?

[Deus ret.]

When I played the TO my approach was to sit still for a couple of turns and wait how the conflicts in the neighbourhood develop. Especially the Lits are very aggressive early on and cause some upheaval in their surroundings. Because of the TO's superior military, no-one will attack them until some time in the game, so it's possible to wait for some easy pickings (and the waiting won't be long). Taking Lithuania early on expands borders considerably and might provoke further conlict with any of the bordering factions; besides it's also quite rebellious and takes some troops to subdue IIRC.

My suggestion would be to take Novgorod ASAP because it is quite rich and well-developed, making it possible and more sensible to get Estonia; in addition, you will stay away from the numerous wars further South.

[Martok]

Nice going King Kurt. I actually did virtually the same thing in my TO campaign, except I believe I waited a few years before invading Lithiuania. Good show, either way, though!

As for what to do next, I agree with Deus ret. that invading Novgorod is a viable option. It's reasonably built-up with decent income, and you can build a port there. In addition, it helps that you would be continuing to attack non-Catholics, which of course will make the Pope happy. Of course, you could attack some of the rebel provinces of the eastern steppes instead, but you should probably take out the Russian princes at the earliest opportunity.

[Maximillian von Hapsburg]

I always wanted to play the Teutonic Order. I'll download XL soon :)

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Maximillian! XL is a fun mod; you'll be glad you picked it up.

[Vladimir]

One thing I did to challenge myself was to only start wars via crusade. My first target was, of course, Estonia. It took a while to build the chapter house and crusade but when I did I took the province and rebel-farmed it for a while. The crusading option let’s you role-play it a lot and provides you with many religious fanatics to compensate for a lack of siege equipment. Plus, you really need to do all you can to expand your influence.

[Xehh II]

What is XL?
No, Lord Cazaric do not reply to this.

[Martok]

XL is a mod created by VikingHorde. Along with BKB's SuperMod and Wes' MedMod, it's considered to be one of the 3 major "regular" mods for MTW/VI. (As opposed to "total conversion" mods like Samurai Wars, Hellenic Total War, and Pike & Musket.) XL adds numerous new factions & units, rebalances the value of both land and trade, removes certain "land bridges", as well as making various other changes. You can go here for more detailed information and download instructions.

[Xehh II]

Sounds cool, pity I can't play it.

[King Kurt]

Can I add a small advert for XL as a recent convert. I found the download very easy. I then saved it to a CD and carried out the upgrade from that, loading the mod first then the patch. The installation is very easy and would recomend it to anybody - if you can install MTW, you can install XL.
XL then gives you an improved version of what is an excellent game in its vanilla form. Not only more factions, but the change in trade and income from the land presents a whole new set of challenges to face. In vanilla I had developed a style of play where you grabbed a few provinces, built a trade empire then blitzed the rest of Europe. In XL - admittingly I am only in my first serious campaign - it appears you have to be more careful in how you build up your empire, so you have to temper your bouts of expansion with periods of turtling to rebuild your forces. So give it a try - you can even carry on playing vanilla as well as the mod allows it.

[Maximillian von Hapsburg]

So in XL you can build Teutonic Knights without needing a crusade marker? Or not?

[King Kurt]

Max - yes in XL you can play the Teutonic Order and train Teutonic Knights. You obviously need a fair bit of infrastructure, but you can - what's more Prussia gives them a +1 valour. The best point is that your King and Princes come with their Teutonic Knight bodyguard - a 40 man unit to boot. So early on you get a nice stream of TKs from royality. You also get to train Order foot as well - they are very nice as well.

[Maximillian von Hapsburg]

Sounds pretty good :) I did want to see the film of Alexander Nevsky but I can only get it out on video at my library and I don't have a video player only a DVD one :(

Thanks for the awesome info, I'll be on MTW soon hopefully.


Yours,



Max ;)

[King Kurt]

Well - I have started the campaign proper - and it is going nicely.
Move 1, build an inn, train an order foot, assign governors etc, gather all your army including the King and invade Lithuania. Covieniently, the Lithuanians send about half their army into Volhynia, so you win easily. I also managed to capture their king - a 10,000 florin ransom, thank you very much. Next move, assault castle - castle falls and anothe 2,000 florin boost for the coffers - and another order foot trained. I leave the Lithuanians in Volhynia a neutered force, a convient shield and no reemergencies.
Now you have an amazing treasury - for this stage of the campaign. Over the next few moves I built a emissary and rebuilt my forces and grew them with a few mercs. I bribed Estonia and invaded Prussia. I formed some good alliances - Sweden and Russia - and generaly teched up - a fleet and some trading posts and a chapter house which produced a crusade marker.
Next phase - Novgorod attacks me at sea - I respond with a strong attack on Novogorod and a weak attack on Smolensk. I win in Novogorod - he retreats into the castle - and I retreat from Smolensk. Next move, I assault Novogorod's castle with part of my force and invade Smolensk from Lithuania and Novogorod. I take Novogorod and win in Smolensk. Next move assault Smolensk castle to wipe out the Novos completely. At the same time, I have a bit of rebellion trouble in Prussia, but this is put down with help from the Swedes. The next few moves are a regrouping to recover from the war.
So now it is 1220 and things look good. I have a nice little empire and my income is reasonable - I am in a yearly surplus now - I have a nice flexable army - Teutonic Knights, order foot, FMAA, arbs, halberdiers, lithuanian turcopoles etc. Also, as I am playing GA, I have behaved fairly historically - only attacked pagans etc, have a Crusade marker ready for a crusade in the near future.
The quandry is what to do next? The logical person for me to attack is the Russians - but they have been a good ally, so in a role playing mode I am reluctant to attack them. Also, we are only 10 years from the Horde, so fighting a war against the faction between them and me seems stupid - not only would I be weakened, but also the Russians would not be there as a barrier to them. My inclination is carry on regrouping, teching up with an eye on the Horde problems in 10 - 15 years time. Once we have weathered the storm, the Russians should be there for the taking if they haven't gone already. As a diversion, I am tempted to launch a Crusade to Granada. I like the idea of my crusade wandering over Western Europe, havesting a nice force as my crusade goes on its Spanish holidays!! In my defence, the Pope has called upon all good Catholics to crusade against the Almos, so it seems vaguely in keeping.
What do people think? - all comments welcome.