Hypothetical Scenario

[Cronos Impera]

Imagine this:
You are a succesful designer and artist. A guy enters your gallery and buys one of your artworks. Later he covers his whole house with that particular design. Than he thinks about killing a group of people and succeads in his plans. Than he gets convicted and executed for his crimes.
Than......a group of idiotic bigots that call themselves "Civil Rghts Activists" decide the designs in his house are "symbols of hatred and murder' and bans them.And the victims's fammilies agree with them and you are thrown into the Recycle Bin of history.
Belive it, this thing has happened before with the swastika and the fasces and the red star and all things before.A confirmation that without any exception whatsoever, man has always been in a form or another a bigot, and bigotry isn't an exception, it's a general rule applied by both victims and executioners. It is sad that in the West...the so-called hub of civilization all meanings get deformed and twisted in such a way that anything valuable is thrown in the dirt and we call that "multiculturalism".

Now if you're allready bored of this post....and me in particular(I know you are) lets start discussing less philosophycal things and more facts.

The colour red has always been the prefered one of revolutionaries throught the world. Why? Because it symbolises fire and fire means change. All revolutionary ideologies from republicanism, to bolshevism and national-socialism embraced red and white colours. Should we ban those because on the WW2 Nazi flag they encircled the swastika? Or should we ban the skull and two crossed bones because SS officers had those on their hats. If thus, than pirates should have their logo censured as well.
Why must a symbol be censored because some hippy bigots are too narrow-minded to accept the fact that a symbol can have multiple meanings. Today's political-corectness is just another form of bigotism imposed over anothers.


Take another example: MISA (The Movement for Spiritual Integration Into Absolutism) founded by Gregorian Bivolaru.A well-known New Age sect, this one urges its followers to drink urine and heve group-sex. The movement has adopted The Star of David for its banner and if the self-righteous political correct trends continue the next time this movement does something really stupid and violent the Mosaic religion won't be able to use it's main icon anymore. They'll tear up shrines and ban the symbol from Bibles.....that is the world created by narrow-minded bigots who can't distinguish multiple senses.

[Kralizec]

Merkel IIRC tried to push for a EU swatsika ban recently (haven't been following the news very well as of late)
The effort stranded, among other reasons, because the swatsika is a religious symbol for Hindus. It's not all bad.

What I'm bothered more about is the double standard - swatsikas, unless in a Hindu or pre-1900 context are considered an evil symbol, while there are plenty of morons who go around wearing T-shirts with the hammer and sickle.

[Vuk]

I don't know why WIKI doesn't have it, but it was also a religious symbol of some American Indians. The Europeans were trying to market Indian rugs, but the Indian designs were not selling nearly as well as the ones from the Orient and Europe, so the Westeners introduced to the Indians the symbols that they are now associated with. One of those being a swastika. The Indians then incorparated those symbols into their culture and religion. It is funny, because all the "Indian" designs you see come from either the Orient or Europe. Those were not the design that Indians originally made on the stuff, but ones introduced by westerners to increase the value of their trade goods. Found that rather funny. :P

[Papewaio]

And Buddhists... a lot of Vegetarian Buddhist restaurants have that symbol here... hardly a banned item.

In a particular configuration it is a brand mark for a hate group. Companies have exclusive rights to their brand logos too... you can brand letters/words in a colour combination... for instance a large M in yellow belongs to a particular group.

To deny that a symbol in a particular configuration has a particular meaning is to deny language.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Isn't the religious swastika arranged so that the arms are at 12, 3, 6 and 9, while the Nazi one is slanted? So you could ban one and not the other.

Better not to disallow either, of course. I hope our government would tell the EU where to go if they proposed a general ban.

[ShadeHonestus]

Try living in the states where Christopher Columbus personally killed millions of natives and the confederate flag itself runs the streets trying to enslave people.

[Strike For The South]

Try living in the states where Christopher Columbus personally killed millions of natives and the confederate flag itself runs the streets trying to enslave people.

Not the dumbest thing I've ever heard but damn close

[ShadeHonestus]

Not the dumbest thing I've ever heard but damn close

What? You've never heard the rhetoric laying the fate of all native americans at CC's doorstep? Even calling for Columbus day to be excommunicated? Don't get me started on the issue of the confederate flag. You can't even talk about it or the south in the Civil War without being held in suspicions of racism.

[Strike For The South]

What? You've never heard the rhetoric laying the fate of all native americans at CC's doorstep? Even calling for Columbus day to be excommunicated? Don't get me started on the issue of the confederate flag. You can't even talk about it or the south in the Civil War without being held in suspicions of racism.

People attack CC and the Confedracy becuase they are small minded and believe everything the history channel tells them. The Indians died en masse due to an immune system that couldnt cope with European diease thats hardly CC fault. The Indians got a raw deal. As for the flag I really dont care I like it its nifty. I would also like to point every flag flying today has blood on it so to pin all the confedrates as teh racists is retarded at best. The stuff you posted is used by bleeding hearts to get into peoples checkbooks and its stupid.

[KukriKhan]

So the question is: when can a symbol, co-opted by some "evil" (read: war-losing) group, be safely used in the general population again, in art, literature, and common display?

10 years?
30 years?
a Generation?
2 generations?

Let's keep the discussion to that, please.

For example, would anyone get offended see ing these:

on their dinner plates?

Out side the UK, definately not. Inside the UK, probably not also. Yet a mere 500 years ago, people died under those banners.

[Strike For The South]

So the question is: when can a symbol, co-opted by some "evil" (read: war-losing) group, be safely used in the general population again, in art, literature, and common display?

10 years?
30 years?
a Generation?
2 generations?

Let's keep the discussion to that, please.

Each suituation is different. However the union jack kept flying when millions of Indians were being sluaghtered the French flag still flew when Algerians were being massacered. The point is history is written by the victors. Socitey decides what is good killing and bad killing the winners decide Kurki. Symbols dont all of sudden cleanse after a certian point becuase thats all they are is symbols. Trying to tag everything with good and evil doesn work.

[ShadeHonestus]

The stuff you posted is used by bleeding hearts to get into peoples checkbooks and its stupid.

That was the point of the post...to point out the glaring stupidity in those examples. When you posted you made it sound like those were my views and I was stupid for stating them. Or that you agreed with those examples and thought posting them in that way was stupid. lol

[KukriKhan]

Symbols dont all of sudden cleanse after a certian point becuase thats all they are is symbols

I disagree there, although I agree with the rest of your post. Eventually, symbols stop being political statements of hatred and intent to kill & dominate, and resume their role as decorations, to be used by artists and craftsmen to make their objects look 'nifty' (to use your word).

The young, ever eager to differentiate themselves from their elders, usually lead that effort, taking up the "evil" idols their fathers learned to hate. As they should - it makes the symbol(s) de-nuded, shown for what they are: marketing devices, dramatic displays used to fire-up the masses behind some vague "us vs. them" language.

[Banquo's Ghost]

For example, would anyone get offended see ing these:

on their dinner plates?

Out side the UK, definately not. Inside the UK, probably not also. Yet a mere 500 years ago, people died under those banners.

Hey, I'm Irish - as shown in the Ulster thread, I can get offended by symbols/people/imagined slights from thousands of years ago. It's a kind of national hobby.

The young, ever eager to differentiate themselves from their elders, usually lead that effort, taking up the "evil" idols their fathers learned to hate. As they should - it makes the symbol(s) de-nuded, shown for what they are: marketing devices, dramatic displays used to fire-up the masses behind some vague "us vs. them" language.

I think the issue with some symbols is their resurrection by the young who don't know, or don't care, about the evil done under that banner. Symbols are incredibly powerful, and time does not necessarily diminish that power. It is dangerous to overlook that power and its hold on the unimaginative. Symbols represent ideas, and ideas are the most powerful things on earth.

Consider how many people have died for scraps of coloured cloth, or those funny little crosses and crescents.

[AntiochusIII]

I don't know why WIKI doesn't have it, but it was also a religious symbol of some American Indians. The Europeans were trying to market Indian rugs, but the Indian designs were not selling nearly as well as the ones from the Orient and Europe, so the Westeners introduced to the Indians the symbols that they are now associated with. One of those being a swastika. The Indians then incorparated those symbols into their culture and religion. It is funny, because all the "Indian" designs you see come from either the Orient or Europe. Those were not the design that Indians originally made on the stuff, but ones introduced by westerners to increase the value of their trade goods. Found that rather funny. :P

The HELL!?

You are claiming the Indians put the swastika pattern in their culture to impress the Europeans and frickin' sell their rugs, yeah...

Sorry, but I don't think it's a very strong claim.

I think the issue with some symbols is their resurrection by the young who don't know, or don't care, about the evil done under that banner. Symbols are incredibly powerful, and time does not necessarily diminish that power. It is dangerous to overlook that power and its hold on the unimaginative. Symbols represent ideas, and ideas are the most powerful things on earth.

If you mean the skinheads who think wearing the Nazi swastika, tattoo it, etc., are cool; well...

They don't exactly make people shine with rebellious pride, or disturbed beyond reason of the heralding return of the Nazi regime; but they aren't very pleasant either. I'm afraid of them, though; they could beat the **** out of me.

The best way to destroy a symbol's power -- which I agree with you exists -- is to break the taboo associated with it. Destroy the symbolism, and the lines on the board will become what they really are: the lines on the board.

The question remains on when is the precise time where the taboo should be broken. It's a delicate question, with factors ranging from the intensity of the conflicts and ideology associated with the symbol to the lifespan of the participants, among many other things, down to pure guesswork; but I think, for the case of the swastika, that a generation is enough. The ban in Europe overstays its uses in my opinion. There ought to be a balance between delicate sensibilities and principles of freedom somewhere.

[Cronos Impera]

If you want to fight an ideea, you can't do it by bashing or banning some symbols currently asociated with that particular ideea.You can make a symbol of hatred, racist bull or some pseudo-religious persecution out of everything. You can use sqares, triangles, letters, curves, lines or even smilies for that.
But that doesn't mean symbols can't have multiple meanings, that snakes are still used to symbolise health and that the celtic cross was and still is....just another cross.....we shouldn't blame symbols, we should blame those who use them to represent twisted ideologies. The murder weapon is always innocent..no matter what it was used for.

[Justiciar]

For example, would anyone get offended see ing these:

Acctually, I know a few old Lankies who'd sooner die than have a White rose painted on their pottery.

[SwordsMaster]

Whatever happened to free speech.... Why should I not use the svastika just because some morons used it as their symbol?

Continuing with that train of thought, you could ban the cross because the crusaders that used it killed jews and muslims, which is, of course against the PC multicultural multilateralism.

Or make them things M rated. If you want to use the svastika you must be over 18 or accompanied by an adult. Or something.

[Tuuvi]

Today's political-corectness is just another form of bigotism imposed over anothers.

That is one of the best statements I have ever read.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

For example, would anyone get offended see ing these:

on their dinner plates?

Out side the UK, definately not. Inside the UK, probably not also. Yet a mere 500 years ago, people died under those banners.

My plates are a murky beige, because I try to keep everyone happy. Recently, I recieved a complaint. It stated that my plates looked like a substance akin to diarrhea.


You can't please anyone these days.

[Strike For The South]

I disagree there, although I agree with the rest of your post. Eventually, symbols stop being political statements of hatred and intent to kill & dominate, and resume their role as decorations, to be used by artists and craftsmen to make their objects look 'nifty' (to use your word).

The young, ever eager to differentiate themselves from their elders, usually lead that effort, taking up the "evil" idols their fathers learned to hate. As they should - it makes the symbol(s) de-nuded, shown for what they are: marketing devices, dramatic displays used to fire-up the masses behind some vague "us vs. them" language.

Is that why the sickle and hammer is ok on a T-shirt but a swastika isnt?

[ShadeHonestus]

Is that why the sickle and hammer is ok on a T-shirt but a swastika isnt?

The sickle and the hammer has a better marketing team in the media.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I haven't seen many hammer and sickle shirts, but the image of Che flashing everywhere is rather annoying.

[Marshal Murat]

I see Mao, Che, Castro, Stalin, Lenin, and hammer and sickles.
I think it's because after the Berlin Wall fell, and ol' USSR fell apart, we think Communism is a laughing joke, not a serious threat.

[Blodrast]

I see Mao, Che, Castro, Stalin, Lenin, and hammer and sickles.
I think it's because after the Berlin Wall fell, and ol' USSR fell apart, we think Communism is a laughing joke, not a serious threat.

I seriously doubt that's the reason... I don't see how an ideology and regimes who killed and starved and force-migrated millions of people can be seen as a joke, merely 15 years after they are over.

The Holocaust happened 60 years ago, not 15, how come we don't consider it as a joke ? I mean, Communism killed way more people than died in the Holocaust.

So... no. I'm afraid I disagree with your reasoning.
And I'm also afraid that most of Eastern Europe and a good chunk of Asia might, too.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Please delete.

[Marshal Murat]

The difference between the Holocaust and Communism is this.

I get taught all about the Holocaust at school, and how bad it was, and told about the Museum in Washington D.C.

I don't get taught about the Communism scares and threats that were prevalent during the 60's and 70's. Its a laughing joke, that such a corrupt nation could have survived.
I wasn't around to be scared by Commies, maybe you were, but I wasn't.
Now it's just comedic, silly.
Tfui to Communism.

[Cowhead418]

The difference between the Holocaust and Communism is this.

I get taught all about the Holocaust at school, and how bad it was, and told about the Museum in Washington D.C.

I don't get taught about the Communism scares and threats that were prevalent during the 60's and 70's. Its a laughing joke, that such a corrupt nation could have survived.
I wasn't around to be scared by Commies, maybe you were, but I wasn't.
Now it's just comedic, silly.
Tfui to Communism.

Some atrocities just seem to get more pub than others. For example, last year I did a report on King Leopold of Belgium, whose greed ended up causing the deathes of nearly twenty million Africans in the Congo during the late 1800s (many of them had their hands and feet cut off). I had never heard of King Leopold before this report, and most people probably have no clue that this even happened. The atrocities Leopold committed would have to rank up there with the worst, yet you never hear about him. Racism is definitely a factor here, though there are many others.

[Vuk]

The HELL!?

You are claiming the Indians put the swastika pattern in their culture to impress the Europeans and frickin' sell their rugs, yeah...

What people think of as "Indian" designs are not. They are mostly Oriental, Indian, (note the distinction) and European. (Almost ALL Oriental and Indian)
I think you have seen a little to many 90's Westerns...

[ShadeHonestus]

I have to back Anti up on this one a little bit from my study of Native American cultures. Many of the designs in culturally distinctive NA weavings actually have their source in the language. You can look at the Dakota language as a sound color language and their decorations on everything as an extension of that. The SW Native Americans who are recognized the most for their weaving has its foundation in their religion, language and culture with nothing borrowed outside of its Native trade structures. The swastika as found in Native American art has been traced to a very old pre-contact independent emergence. The type of thing we see with pyramid building and other forms of architecture and art that appears at different stages of cultural development but independent of contact between these cultures.