Two questions about KH recruitment

[Domitius Ulpianus]

Hello there everybody!

Im playing a KH campaing and so far I am having a blast. This is my first time with them...so I have a few questions for the vets or the EB team (if they are so kind to give some words of wisdom):

1) Why does Sparta (govt type 1) have less unit choices than Athena(govt type 2 I think) with the same lvl of MIC?

2) what lvl of Mic do I need and/or where can I recruit Spartiates Hoplitai (Im assuming Sparta only...but just wanted to make sure.

Thanks a lot!

[MiniMe]

1) Why does Sparta (govt type 1) have less unit choices than Athena(govt type 2 I think) with the same lvl of MIC?

2) what lvl of Mic do I need and/or where can I recruit Spartiates Hoplitai (Im assuming Sparta only...but just wanted to make sure.

2) Yep, they're Sparta exclusive only =) ;
1) Since in 0.8.1 Spartiates Hoplitai stats are improved... you don't wan't to produce anything else there! =)
(BTW: 0.8.1 Spartiates Hoplitai really ROCK, one of the best)

[Schatten]

other question...who to hell has had the idea to make greek general a foot hoplite unit in 0.81? (former Choosen Hoplites in 0.80 if i remember correct...they now not recruitable but a general Unit).

First a General that running on his own feet from left to right of the front looks a bit......... mhm ;)

second and there is the real problem this Unit runs alway in phalanx mode...so the slow as hell, they cannot run with other Units if you have to advance or retreat, you cannot turn phalanx modus off since its the rally button in General Unit...they are now really useless except for static, defensive battles.....everytime if you have to move in the battle the Koinon General is useless and only ballast :P

Please fix it as fast as possible, its stupid and even not realistic, everytime except defenses and even than a General hast try to be as mobile as possible even if he was the one man of 1000 that has had a Horse or chariot ^^ .....and now this

[Domitius Ulpianus]

other question...who to hell has had the idea to make greek general a foot hoplite unit in 0.81? (former Choosen Hoplites in 0.80 if i remember correct...they now not recruitable but a general Unit).

First a General that running on his own feet from left to right of the front looks a bit......... mhm ;)

second and there is the real problem this Unit runs alway in phalanx mode...so the slow as hell, they cannot run with other Units if you have to advance or retreat, you cannot turn phalanx modus off since its the rally button in General Unit...they are now really useless except for static, defensive battles.....everytime if you have to move in the battle the Koinon General is useless and only ballast :P

Please fix it as fast as possible, its stupid and even not realistic, everytime except defenses and even than a General hast try to be as mobile as possible even if he was the one man of 1000 that has had a Horse or chariot ^^ .....and now this

Your answer is in this thread Schatten: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79875

I did the changes Foot proposed and I really love my generals now (Spartiates Hoplitai)

[Kull]

other question...who to hell has had the idea to make greek general a foot hoplite unit in 0.81? (former Choosen Hoplites in 0.80 if i remember correct...they now not recruitable but a general Unit).

First a General that running on his own feet from left to right of the front looks a bit......... mhm ;)

second and there is the real problem this Unit runs alway in phalanx mode...so the slow as hell, they cannot run with other Units if you have to advance or retreat, you cannot turn phalanx modus off since its the rally button in General Unit...they are now really useless except for static, defensive battles.....everytime if you have to move in the battle the Koinon General is useless and only ballast :P

Please fix it as fast as possible, its stupid and even not realistic, everytime except defenses and even than a General hast try to be as mobile as possible even if he was the one man of 1000 that has had a Horse or chariot ^^ .....and now this

Thanks for that thoughtful and coherent critique. The EB team really doesn't care if people want generals on horseback or rocket sleds, we'll follow history insofar as it's possible. So you might try consulting some books on Greek warfare. Anyway, a new KH general is part of the Hotfix. A phalanx-based general is one historical possibility for this time frame, but the problem is the hard-coded inability to switch them out of phalanx formation without using a non-intuitive technique. Hence you'll get a hoplite general soon.

[Schatten]

hmm, spartans..but it fix its only a bit since even without phalanx they still to immobile and slow as a General...no way to bringt them fix from one side of the battle to another to enourage units or lead a attack into a gap in enemy formation...

has anybode make a change to cavalery Unit (like this one that Thellos Athenaios has posted in the thread) and can say that this change works?

[Schatten]

Thanks for that thoughtful and coherent critique. The EB team really doesn't care if people want generals on horseback or rocket sleds, we'll follow history insofar as it's possible. So you might try consulting some books on Greek warfare. Anyway, a new KH general is part of the Hotfix. A phalanx-based general is one historical possibility for this time frame, but the problem is the hard-coded inability to switch them out of phalanx formation without using a non-intuitive technique. Hence you'll get a hoplite general soon.

hmm...no idea why you have make the change since there was no need for it but please dont sell us the story about KH (Greek) Generals that walk on their feet into battle ;)

Except very rare times like a city defense or defense of a static position or "last stand" they had everytime a Horse (or earlier often a chariot) and their Guards too...if they lost it later in battle or settle down to do something...its a another story and event than most times somebody has had their horse near to the General if he needs it again...but i know not one ancient open field KH Battle where the General has fight from begin until end on his feet and has run over the battlefield...even at Theromopyle Leonidas has start the Battle at his Horse and settled down first after the Spartans had taken their Position for their "last stand"....and even if so the Sweboz should run on their feet to since it was much harder to find a horse in ancient german forest as in ancien Hellen ;)

anyways in the game its all a compromis (hope the correct english word^^) between history and game mechanic...but why you have change a thing that has work well (if you think their bodyguards too strong so why not KH medium Vacalery or so that is weaker?) to one than its not really history correct and event dont work well (the phalanx formation-problem)? cannot really understood it, mhm

So i want not more as a way to change this back into Cavalery Unit to give them their mobility back, not more.

[NeoSpartan]

IF you want the EB team to change the KH general to have cavarly bodyguards then you MUST SHOW THEM historical documents which show KH generals riding and fighting on horses (like the Macedonians did). But if you can't show them the historical references, and still KH generals in horses then you are playing the WRONG MOD.

[bovi]

If you want to mod your EB installation to give KH back cavalry generals, I suggest you take a look at export_descr_unit.txt from a 0.7.x installation (can't remember if it's in 0.8 or not) and figure out what you need to change in the 0.81 equivalent.

You may want to moderate your tone, and as NeoSpartan says, bring evidence to the discussion. Comments like "who to hell has had the idea" and "its stupid and even not realistic" are very unlikely to convince anyone of anything.

[Brightblade]

Oh noes, it's MeinPanzer's evil twin brother.

[Kugutsu]

I dont get all the fuss. Those epileptic hoplites were hard as nails when I had to fight them, they virtually battered their way through a merc pezhetairoi unit from the front, and only routed after I butchered the rest of their army, pinned them on both sides with more phalanxes and arranged my cretan archers to their rear... They still managed to massacre a whole unit of merc ipikratidies hoplites from the front, in the middle of the battle line.

[Foot]

Oh noes, it's MeinPanzer's evil twin brother.

At least MeinPanzer had some historical evidence, even if he wasn't the most friendly in presenting it.

Schatten, please don't make blanket statements like you are doing without some sort of evidence to back it up. As for the gameplay/history thing, we maintain that history does not preclude gameplay but in fact accentuates it, and thus there is no need for compromise.

Foot

[Brightblade]

As a side note, thanks to the EB team for making the Koinon Hellenon my favourite EB faction due to their awesomeness which I cannot begin to express in words. Just wait for the hotfix, I'm sure the EB team wll come up with a suitable replacement for the perma phalanxed General.

[Domitius Ulpianus]

hmm...no idea why you have make the change since there was no need for it but please dont sell us the story about KH (Greek) Generals that walk on their feet into battle ;)

Except very rare times like a city defense or defense of a static position or "last stand" they had everytime a Horse (or earlier often a chariot) and their Guards too...if they lost it later in battle or settle down to do something...its a another story and event than most times somebody has had their horse near to the General if he needs it again...but i know not one ancient open field KH Battle where the General has fight from begin until end on his feet and has run over the battlefield...even at Theromopyle Leonidas has start the Battle at his Horse and settled down first after the Spartans had taken their Position for their "last stand"....and even if so the Sweboz should run on their feet to since it was much harder to find a horse in ancient german forest as in ancien Hellen ;)

anyways in the game its all a compromis (hope the correct english word^^) between history and game mechanic...but why you have change a thing that has work well (if you think their bodyguards too strong so why not KH medium Vacalery or so that is weaker?) to one than its not really history correct and event dont work well (the phalanx formation-problem)? cannot really understood it, mhm

So i want not more as a way to change this back into Cavalery Unit to give them their mobility back, not more.

[Vorian]

As a side note, thanks to the EB team for making the Koinon Hellenon my favourite EB faction due to their awesomeness which I cannot begin to express in words. Just wait for the hotfix, I'm sure the EB team wll come up with a suitable replacement for the perma phalanxed General.

x2

For now, I will play them for a while but not seriously. I replaced the phalanx with Spartans as some suggested, but messed with the stats, giving them uber stats, plus frighten infantry. I took Korinthos only with two genrals and two Hoplitai Aploi lol.

I guess i will wait for the final version to play them properly.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Tell me what units Bartix got then?!?!

[Al-Masri]

Tell me what units Bartix got then?!?!

Please tell me he is coming back.

[dutch81]

Hey I don't like the idea that all my different Greek generals are running around with a Spartan bodyguard but I also don't like the phanlanx and when I have multiple generals in one army my other generals never activate the phalanx ... would a quick fix for this problem be to simply remove the phalanx ability out of the export_descr_unit file for this unit. This would not waste peoples campaign as it can be done mid-game and otherwise leave things as the EB team designed!

[Watchman]

hmm, spartans..but it fix its only a bit since even without phalanx they still to immobile and slow as a General...no way to bringt them fix from one side of the battle to another to enourage units or lead a attack into a gap in enemy formation...

If those ugly, hairy and unwashed Sweboz and effeminate perfumed Saba barbarians can manage with foot generals, surely the mighty righteous Hellenes can pull it off as well ?

[Elminster12]

If those ugly, hairy and unwashed Sweboz and effeminate perfumed Saba barbarians can manage with foot generals, surely the mighty righteous Hellenes can pull it off as well ?

Obviously Schatten hasn't seen the hairy unwashed or effeminate perfumed barbarian generals in action, since he seems to think them ineffective. He's the only person I know who would have WW2 Japanese soldiers riding bicycles(they didn't get there on foot!)

[The Errant]

If those ugly, hairy and unwashed Sweboz and effeminate perfumed Saba barbarians can manage with foot generals, surely the mighty righteous Hellenes can pull it off as well ?

Saba generals ride camels into battle. Nothing else explains the generals vastly superior mobility in the desert. Due to the EB teams decision not to include camel units, they are represented as infantry in battle.
They won't ride horses. That's beneath their dignity. Only Citizens and unwashed Beduins ride horses into battle.

[dutch81]

I have not fought in the east yet at all ... I hadn't even noticed that there were no camel units in EB! Just wondering if this is for historical accuracy? I am surprised now that you mention it, that the general unit of the southern arabian penninsula faction that I cannot pronounce or remember, is a foot unit as well ... I would have thought that in such a godforsaken region a noble man would never have been caught dead on foot!

Not really related to KH ... I know.

But back to that, what about simply removing the phalanx ability like I mentioned you can do this mid-campaign, would this not make them more like other greek hoplites ... which stand up very well in a fight ... despite being outdated!

I have always had my generals in the front line in my KH campaign and I must say I have not lost one general yet despite the danger I put them in ... but if a 60 some year old Leonidas can fight in the front line with his troops then my generals will certainly not do less!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I don't think southern arabian nobles would have realized they were living in a godforsaken region, which would have thus compelled them to ride horses instead.

Keep in mind that the saba unit rosters are way off from being completed. I don't know what their generals or bodyguards will look like though.

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, the KH generals are less vulnerable being on foot (nada mount effect)and with 60+ men. The only problem is you can't pull him out at all.

[The Errant]

What! You're going to force the Sabyn generals to ride. What a horrible idea. Only Citizens and unwashed barbarians (like greeks and romans) ride horses into battle. Not "Civilized" people.
Atleast M'aiq understood the proper use of horses...
- Horses.... Oh, M'aiq loves horses! Especially with good cream sauce.
- You would wish to ride upon a beast? There is a way... Go to one of the many silt-strider ports and pay your fee! You wish one for personal use? Bah! Walk if you must; run if you are chased!
-I do not wish to fight on horseback. It is a good way to ruin a perfectly good horse... which is, to say, a perfectly good dinner.

[dutch81]

Yeah, the KH generals are less vulnerable being on foot (nada mount effect)and with 60+ men. The only problem is you can't pull him out at all.

Pull him out of a fight? Is he a coward ... that he needs to be pulled out ... if it is a tought fight all the more reason for your general to be in the middle of it! All greek generals seek to emulate the heroes of old so that some day they too may be seen in the same light.

Sorry about the godforsaken comment earlier ... I guess some people choose to live there ... hmm ... OK ... I just cannot make myself think of that area in a more postive light. No death threat please!

[Foot]

Sorry about the godforsaken comment earlier ... I guess some people choose to live there ... hmm ... OK ... I just cannot make myself think of that area in a more postive light. No death threat please!

That "godforsaken" region spawned one of the most powerful religions in the modern world. Not to bad for a region that god didn't go near.

Foot

[dutch81]

That "godforsaken" region spawned one of the most powerful religions in the modern world. Not to bad for a region that god didn't go near.

Foot

I guess I better just shut up ... my mother always said if I cannot say something nice don't say anything at all. Maybe not saying anything more says everything I wanted to say anyway!

[antisocialmunky]

That "godforsaken" region spawned one of the most powerful religions in the modern world. Not to bad for a region that god didn't go near.

Foot

With a little help from Hinduism and Abraham's kids of course. Its godforsaken but that didn't stop it from becoming a crossroads of trade(atleast part of it) historically.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

"Arabs don't love the desert, Mr. Laurence. There is nothing in the desert and nobody loves nothing."