One third of the holocaust.

[Spino]

This Holocaust body count argument reminds me an awful alot of the discussions surrounding the actual number of men present in the Persian army at Thermopylae and Gaugamela. Thanks to the lack of documentation or supporting evidence people can argue endlessly about those figures. Even reasonable figures are hotly contested. Back and forth, back and forth, blah blah.

It is rather futile to seek finality, let alone any kind of closure over this issue because people (or more specifically, historians) are going to argue over the actual number who died in the holocaust for the next... oh, several millenia or so. There's really no point or sense to the level of contentiousness, especially amongst non-historians with a personal bone to pick with the murderers or the victims. It makes it even more difficult when you consider the equally imprecise number of Gypsies, Poles, undesirables, etc. who were also deliberately dispatched during the Holocaust.

It really doesn't matter whether it was 1.5 million or 6 million. We know it was in the millions and more importantly we know the reason why they perished. The sad but oddly comforting truth of the matter is eventually the Holocaust will join the long list of mass murders commited through the ages and itself will become a footnote of history. Comforting in that we now have a reasonable means by which to gauge and predict the behavior and trends which can lead to such events.

Not that such predictors will change anything; nobody lifted a finger to help the people of Khwarazmia or the Armenians or the Tutsis. The moral crusaders of the world can talk the talk all they like. Unless they exhibit a willingness to sacrfice their own fortunes and fates to save the lives of others their cries of righting the wrongs is just alot of hot air.

[Veho Nex]

It is rather futile to seek finality, let alone any kind of closure over this issue because people (or more specifically, historians) are going to argue over the actual number who died in the holocaust for the next... oh, several millenia or so. There's really no point or sense to the level of contentiousness, especially amongst non-historians with a personal bone to pick with the murderers or the victims. It makes it even more difficult when you consider the equally imprecise number of Gypsies, Poles, undesirables, etc. who were also deliberately dispatched during the Holocaust.

It really doesn't matter whether it was 1.5 million or 6 million. We know it was in the millions and more importantly we know the reason why they perished. The sad but oddly comforting truth of the matter is eventually the Holocaust will join the long list of mass murders commited through the ages and itself will become a footnote of history. Comforting in that we now have a reasonable means by which to gauge and predict the behavior and trends which can lead to such events.

Hmm very interesting but you must think that over the next several millennium that i think in 500-700 years no one will even think about this I'm just trying to gather facts at the moment and thats usually what i do when I'm not in school. so just think of the body count 1.5million compared to 6million the 1.5 is supposed to be just one single camp.

[Lord Condormanius]

These guys are obviously not living in Germany. They'll throw you in jail over there, where Holocaust denial is a crime. In fact, they just sent some guy in his late 60s to prison for just that.

[Tribesman]

This Holocaust body count argument reminds me an awful alot of the discussions surrounding the actual number of men present in the Persian army at Thermopylae and Gaugamela. Thanks to the lack of documentation or supporting evidence people can argue endlessly about those figures. Even reasonable figures are hotly contested. Back and forth, back and forth, blah blah.

But there is some documentary evidence from the Nazis , covering how many people were sent to 4 extermination camps during one year and how many were sent during two weeks of the next year .
Though of course the extermination camps were only one part of the holocaust , the mobile extermination groups also provide documentary evidence of haow many "sub-humans" they killed .

These guys are obviously not living in Germany. They'll throw you in jail over there, where Holocaust denial is a crime. In fact, they just sent some guy in his late 60s to prison for just that.

Ah of course , "the Hitler we loved and why" ....hmmmmm ......jailed after being convicted on 14 counts of incitement to racial hatred wasn't it .

[The Wizard]

How about all the people that lost their families? Three-quarters of my family didn't return after being carted off by the Nazis. What -- they were sent off to a vacation on the Wannsee and didn't want to come back?

[Ser Clegane]

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want to smack a person...).

The whole approach very much reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy "theories". The "maker" of these films resorts to "raisin picking" i.e. he picks some snippets of the whole thing and tries to poke some holes by presenting "facts" that he of course does not bother to back up - like the well case - he asserts that the well of course must be contaminated without providing any evidence that this would be the case (what was the actual set-up of the well? how deep was it? what was the nature of the ground/soil). He just states matter-of-factly that the water would have been contaminated, just as he states matter-of-factly that the prisoners all had an urban background and therefore of course had no clue that their "made up story" (that's what he accusses them of more or less directly) made no sense.
Extremely sloppy work, but usually enough to put some doubts in some minds - and that's what this is all about.

[The Foolish Horseman]

yeh it does remind me a bit of the old 9/11 conspiracies.

On BBC2 a fortnight ago they showed a conspiracy files: 9/11 and i have to admit, when you look at it form the acute angle they view the event from, the conspiracy theories which usually seem utter balderdash, they actually seem extremely plausible, and in many cases even uncannily true.


sorry to "Hijack" ( sorry, what a disresepctful pun) the thread, but did any body else se this show?

Post your views here

[Adrian II]

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want tosmack a person...).

The whole approach very much reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy "theories". The "maker" of these films resorts to "raisin picking" i.e. he picks some snippets of the whole thing and tries to poke some holes by presenting presenting "facts" that he of course does not bother to back up - like the well case - he asserts that the well of course must be contaminated without providing any evidence that this would be the case (what was the actual set-up of the well? how deep was it? what was the nature of the ground/soil). He just states matter-of-factly that the water would have been contaminated, just as he states matter-of-factly that the prisoners all had an urban background and therefore of course had no clue that their "made up story" (that's what he accusses them of more or less directly) made no sense.
Extremely sloppy work, but usually enough enough to put some doubts in some minds - and that's what this is all about.

Well said, Ser Clegane. My fascination is with the reasons why some people are receptive to this sort of stuff on the one hand, and with the motivation of the makers, who go to such extraordinary lengths to 'prove' their moot and historically irrelevant points on the other hand.

It sort of serves as a necessary reminder. A reminder that there is enough hatred, prejudice and militant stupidity in this world to last us another Stone Age.

[Fragony]

Well it's a what if, the holocaust is a symbol, the ultimate genocide, but there have been more genocides, it makes those seem less bad. And there is a lot of propaganda, the gaschambers in auswitz are replica's build after the war, who in his right mind would rebuild a thing like that unless it serves a purpose.

[Veho Nex]

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want to smack a person...)

Very interesting well i finished watching all these and the guy does have a very creepy voice that like makes you want to commit violence towards my fellow man... but any ways some facts he states entirely true and mathematically impossible to do some of these things but then again you need to look at the finer pictures of who's family got hauled off and who survived it was german accounts that said 6million from all work/death camps died and allies and jewish said it was more like 11-16million where i think is kinda far fetched since what is it like 12million something jewish residents in germany/poland at the time i cant remember but i think germany had about 5million while poland had about 6.5-7 million