One third of the holocaust.

**Adrian II** · 03-01-2007, 14:14

Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want tosmack a person...).

The whole approach very much reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy "theories". The "maker" of these films resorts to "raisin picking" i.e. he picks some snippets of the whole thing and tries to poke some holes by presenting presenting "facts" that he of course does not bother to back up - like the well case - he asserts that the well of course must be contaminated without providing any evidence that this would be the case (what was the actual set-up of the well? how deep was it? what was the nature of the ground/soil). He just states matter-of-factly that the water would have been contaminated, just as he states matter-of-factly that the prisoners all had an urban background and therefore of course had no clue that their "made up story" (that's what he accusses them of more or less directly) made no sense.
Extremely sloppy work, but usually enough enough to put some doubts in some minds - and that's what this is all about.

Well said, Ser Clegane. My fascination is with the reasons why some people are receptive to this sort of stuff on the one hand, and with the motivation of the makers, who go to such extraordinary lengths to 'prove' their moot and historically irrelevant points on the other hand.

It sort of serves as a necessary reminder. A reminder that there is enough hatred, prejudice and militant stupidity in this world to last us another Stone Age.

**Fragony** · 03-01-2007, 17:11

Well it's a what if, the holocaust is a symbol, the ultimate genocide, but there have been more genocides, it makes those seem less bad. And there is a lot of propaganda, the gaschambers in auswitz are replica's build after the war, who in his right mind would rebuild a thing like that unless it serves a purpose.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 03-01-2007, 17:58

Why don't conspiracists ever deny that there ever was a Roman Empire? Or deny that Napoleon was a real person versus just a foreign fabrication? I mean, the physical, written, demographic, testimonial evidence for those two is tiny compared to the overwhelming amount there is for the Holocaust.

Not to draw this topic off course, but could there be a teeny bit of anti-semitism involved in denying that the most well-documented and intensly studied event of living memory happened at all?

the gaschambers in auswitz are replica's build after the war, who in his right mind would rebuild a thing like that unless it serves a purpose.

No, the major gas chambers at Auschwitz were left intact very much as they were found, in their blown-up state. A gas chamber at the smaller camp was reconstructed after the war. The Germans had closed it and used it for different purposes already during the war. It was later reconstructed for educational, not zionist-capitalist-bolshewist, purposes. This was clearly stated as such when I took a guided tour there.

Edit: JKarinen. You seem genuinely interested in this subject. It is always good to keep an open mind, and to let each generation of historians scrutinize the historical sources they have. A lot is known about the Holocaust, a lot isn't. By all means use your own judgement.
Generally accepted figures are that some 4.5 to 6 million Jews were murdered.
it was german accounts that said 6million from all work/death camps died and allies and jewish said it was more like 11-16million where i think is kinda far fetched since what is it like 12million something jewish residents in germany/poland at the time i cant remember but i think germany had about 5million while poland had about 6.5-7 million

**Fragony** · 03-01-2007, 18:10

Originally Posted by luigi VI di Fatlington

No, the major gas chambers at Auschwitz were left intact very much as they were found, in their blown-up state. A gas chamber at the smaller camp was reconstructed after the war. The Germans had closed it and used it for different purposes already during the war. It was later reconstructed for educational, not zionist-capitalist-bolshewist, purposes. This was clearly stated as such when I took a guided tour there.

Gah didn't know that, that's the problem with findings from people with an agenda. Where I read it should have been a slight indication that they might have.

**ShadeHonestus** · 03-01-2007, 22:38

If you're really interested in the subject of the holocaust and just how big and well coordinated the whole scheme was, watch the movie Conspiracy by HBO Films not the one with Mel Gibson. It centers on recreating the meeting at Wannsee(sp), going by a single set of notes and minutes that survived from that meeting.

Btw conspiracy as the title refers to that used to wrestle power from all the necessary agencies to make the final solution happen...it has nothing to do with the tin hat wearers who say it didn't happen.

**KrooK** · 03-01-2007, 23:32

JKarinen sorry but you are not right.

You are making mistake very common into describing holocaust. You are describing holocaust as killing Jews and only Jews from Poland and Germany.

Some facts
1)Not only Jews were killed; Poles, Gypsies (count by most sources as Poles), Russians (mostly POWs) and many other nations.
2)Killed Jews did not come from only from Poland or Germany. There were Jews from Poland, Germany, Hunguary (over 250.000), France, Holland, partially Russia and rest of Balkans.
3)There really were absolutely not 6,5 - 7 million of Jews in Poland. Before war there Jews were about 8-12% community, which gives us about 3.000-3.500.000
4)Math by normal man is not math by nazist. Normal man never put 120 men into wagon, nazist do that without problem. People into Auschwitz didnt have one bed per one man, you must remember it too.
5)Auschwitz it wasn't just a one camp -there were some big camps and many smaller, about 40 km around. So there were enough place.

All in all number of 6 millions killed only into Poland is very possible.
Of course by Poland I understand Poland from 1939, which had different (absolutely unlawful on west) borders than today - some camps were not in Poland and they are being count by nazist to camps into Germany, like Stuthoff or Ravensbruck. If we count Poland into todays border, number would be higher.
I won't even mention Russia where every possible crime were commited by Germans, Ukrainians, Russians or anti communist legions like Dutchmen. There were killed at least 27.000.000.

**Dutch_guy** · 03-02-2007, 17:09

Originally Posted by KrooK

.... or anti communist legions like Dutchmen.

Do you mean the Dutch men who joined the Waffen SS ?

**Veho Nex** · 03-06-2007, 17:11

Originally Posted by KrooK

JKarinen sorry but you are not right.

You are making mistake very common into describing holocaust. You are describing holocaust as killing Jews and only Jews from Poland and Germany.

Some facts
1)Not only Jews were killed; Poles, Gypsies (count by most sources as Poles), Russians (mostly POWs) and many other nations.
2)Killed Jews did not come from only from Poland or Germany. There were Jews from Poland, Germany, Hunguary (over 250.000), France, Holland, partially Russia and rest of Balkans.
3)There really were absolutely not 6,5 - 7 million of Jews in Poland. Before war there Jews were about 8-12% community, which gives us about 3.000-3.500.000
4)Math by normal man is not math by nazist. Normal man never put 120 men into wagon, nazist do that without problem. People into Auschwitz didnt have one bed per one man, you must remember it too.
5)Auschwitz it wasn't just a one camp -there were some big camps and many smaller, about 40 km around. So there were enough place.

All in all number of 6 millions killed only into Poland is very possible.
Of course by Poland I understand Poland from 1939, which had different (absolutely unlawful on west) borders than today - some camps were not in Poland and they are being count by nazist to camps into Germany, like Stuthoff or Ravensbruck. If we count Poland into todays border, number would be higher.
I won't even mention Russia where every possible crime were commited by Germans, Ukrainians, Russians or anti communist legions like Dutchmen. There were killed at least 27.000.000.

yeah I messed on that also but I'm not to big with European theater and what went on there i kinda like the pacific my self maybe it's cause i live near it but I still think it's a more intriguing topic

But that was my bad i did a little research after this and found that i misled you guys with my statistics(going by what i thought was plausible and forgot that other people were killed) any ways you make a good point