did pike blocks really just fight with two ranks?

**pike master** · 02-28-2007, 07:17

did they? i always read they fought with 4 to 5 ranks deep.

i wonder why CA decided to go with two? i suppose i need to go back to the books and recheck my sources.

i found this picture showing some reenactors with their pikes presented. i looks to me like most of those guys are gettin ready to bust a gut open 8). the only i see thats not straining is a big giant of a man in the middle whos wandering why everone is having so much trouble holding their pikes up.

if those things were that massive i dont see how you could fight offensively with them. surely the ones that you would fight with were shorter and lighter than 21 feet.

but as you can see there are only two ranks lowered.

**pike master** · 02-28-2007, 15:00

ok here is a picture from a museum in europe somewhere

notice how the pikes are held in a highly more efficient way. the swiss were known and trained to fight with the butt of the bike further back for balance.this would increase their stamina and wieldiness.

surprisingly the first swiss pikes were only 10 ft in length and only grew to 18 when they competed against the landschnekdts.a hint given was that most of the ranks fought with the butt held high and the pikes thrust downward.

this would accomodate a closely packed multirank pike fighting ability since you wouldnt be knocking the wind out of the guy behind you.

**Lusted** · 02-28-2007, 15:12

i wonder why CA decided to go with two? i suppose i need to go back to the books and recheck my sources.

It's 3 with spearwall formation activated.

The first picture you show is English Civil War reenactors, adn yes they did fight like that. The back ranks main aim was to provide mass for the push of pike that most pike fights would devolve into.

**econ21** · 02-28-2007, 15:28

Interesting photos - the first one in particular makes me revise my prior view of the ineffectiveness of sword and buckler men against pikes. I would not give good odds on those re-enactors being able to hold off some determined men with swords.

**Sheogorath** · 02-28-2007, 15:34

Depends on whose doing the fighting...the Swiss were quite good at holding off infantry, whereas, say, some random French pike levy might have trouble with anything smaller than a horse.
Like swordsmen, it all comes down to experience, training, and tactics.

But I beleive that the gunners there were for dealing with infantry anyway.

**Lusted** · 02-28-2007, 15:35

I wouldnt put good odds agianst them stopping most soldiers with decent armour, shields and swords. Pikes were more of a solid block, best used against cavalry but infantry with shields can knock the spears aside, and then the pikemen are in trouble.

**Carl** · 02-28-2007, 15:45

I wouldnt put good odds agianst them stopping most soldiers with decent armour, shields and swords. Pikes were more of a solid block, best used against cavalry but infantry with shields can knock the spears aside, and then the pikemen are in trouble.

I wouldn't put good money on it at all. That top picture is how NOT to use pikes. Although you can't see it in that second picture, (i've been to the place it's from. The royal Armouries in Leeds, UK), the Pike points at the other end are all fairly close together in spite of how far the men are standing apart, (the guy holding one to the ground actually has a horse impailed on the other end

). The reality is that the guy holding it over his head could have 10 guys behind him doing exactly the same and the guy holding it at waist level in front of him. A sheild can knock aside a few pikes. but 10+? I doubt it myself, (Bear in mind the pike point of the guy holding it over his head is drooping towards the ground so it's lower at the other end by quite some margin, and I suspect those pikes are MUCH thicker and stiffer than the real thing, (look at the droop on those in the top picture)). Also, remeber how heavy those pikes are, they wouldn't be easy to deflect aside due to their weight.

On the flip side, not every pike formation would have had every man pointing his pike to the front. It all comes down to the exact pikemen in question. the good pikes who did actually keep as many pikes lowered towards the enemy as possibbile would easilly have created a very thick and impenitrable foprest of pike points. Those that only lowered 2-3 ranks would have been very vulnrable.