did pike blocks really just fight with two ranks?

[R'as al Ghul]

Swiss and Landsknecht soldiers engage in the exceptionally-fierce hand to hand combat known as "bad war." The long spear shafts are their pikes, which became awkward to handle if the push of pike became too disorganized. In that case, halberds and swords became the deadliest weapons. Engraving by Hans Holbein the Younger. Albertina, Vienna.

I think this should be a quite accurate depiction of pike dimensions.
I'd love to see the AI use pikes and I'd love to see the pike push. The unit is in the game but the battle tactics are not.

[pike master]

i thought this one was an interesting picture. the interest is there for better pike performance. and it would be cool if you could hook up your halberds and pikes into the same spearwall on and march them and they would stay together.currently the halberds get outpaced easilly and the only way to keep them up is to turn off spearwall but even then they will lag way back then run to catch up then lag way back again 8(

[Frankenbeasley]

It doesn't really seem fair to compare the technique and physical prowess of the people in the first picture (who are, most likely, white collar workers who are not necessarily in peak physical condition) with real pikemen. I would assume that a lifetime of physical labour and months (if not years) of wielding a pike both in practice and for real, would have led to increased dexterity and confidence with the pike.

[bach01]

It doesn't really seem fair to compare the technique and physical prowess of the people in the first picture (who are, most likely, white collar workers who are not necessarily in peak physical condition) with real pikemen. I would assume that a lifetime of physical labour and months (if not years) of wielding a pike both in practice and for real, would have led to increased dexterity and confidence with the pike.

Definitely agree with that. The average physical fitness of a mercenary from that time period is many times greater then the average fitness of your average white collar officer worker, playing at reenactment on the weekends.

The main strengths of the pike formation (which IMHO are not handled very well by MTW2) is that it is cheap, easier to use and finally, the number of men in the formation.

The cites of the time were overflowing with unemployed men, that could be easily given a long stick made to march in formation, drill on it's rudimentary uses and placed in a large terico, or pike formation with minimum training time.

To be honest the elite sword and shield unit sizes especially for knights are too big. The pike unit formation size should be at least 8 to 10 times the size of the sword and shield units. Especially the knights, as the training for a knight to use sword shield and lance takes years.

As for saying that the sword and shield man would just duck or push the pike out of the way, the strength of the pike in the pike formation is magnified by the number of men in the formation and number of pikes that the sword and shield man would have to push away before one of them got him.

Definitely, would like to see if this could be modded into the game, so that the size of the armies grow through the years, based upon the type of unit, where knights are small elite units, and spear units slightly larger, with pike units being the largest.

Matt

[pike master]

in mtw/vi cavalry had 40 / reg infantry 60 and spear based infantry 100.

i think if you restored those numbers you would probably see an improvement. but there are still critical flaws in the mechanics that need to be addressed and are only going to get worse if the shield bug gets fixed.

[Zoring]

In regards to fitness however, even though those reenactors are probably shagged after holding their pikes up for about 5 minutes, that's probably how a medieval pikeman (no matter his fitness) would feel after an hour of battle, pike's must really have become much less and less effective as the battle wore on, proportionally versus swords.

[dopp]

A hour is a seriously long time for ANY soldier to be fighting continuously, regardless of weapons. Most battles consist of several charges and retreats to give the combatants time to rest.

I feel discipline is often overlooked in these discussions. Unlike earlier soldiers, pikemen (and musketeers) HAVE to be drilled to an extremely high standard just to fight effectively, which directly increases both their fighting prowess and their unit cohesion. It's not just numbers, or tactics, or cheapness; 'modern' soldiers were often better and more reliable fighters than their feudal counterparts by virtue of drill alone.