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Thread: Romanian Factions Requierd

  1. #1

    Default Romanian Factions Requierd

    i think all of you know about the importance of romanian small kindoms north of danube. they posed a constant pain in the neck for the otoman empire, fought hungaryan royalty more than once and polish royalty (moldavian lords). it would be non realistic to miss them. they stoped the turkish advance northwards of the danube with fights like: the battle of rovine (if my memory serves me right Mircea cel Batran defeated baiazid with 5000 men, baiazid had about 15000) or the battle of vaslui, cetatea alba in the case of moldavian lord Stefan cel Mare. Also i think it is wrong to make Transilvania as a province of hungary, they had on more than one ocassion independence, for a short time but in that time they stopped the conquest of belgrad city under the rule of Iancu Corvine de Hunedoara. Even if valachian ppl are north and sout of the danube, under the rule of different powers in the area, there was a powerfull salv-valachian kingdom that defeated the bizantine empire unde the rule of King Ioan I and obtained independence. As for the northern danube there where small(one province) kingdoms that unified, transilvania was conquered by then by the hungarians. even so valachians that were between danube and southern carpatian mountains defeated hungary in 1330. moldavia (dont know the exact years, will check on it if this is approved) was formed with hungarian support by lord dragos. later on in 1600 all three kingdoms were united by mihai viteazul, union that laste 1 year. in any case in 1080 TRANSILVANIA WAS NOT UNDER HUNGARIAN RULE. it was split in 3 main kingdoms ruled by: gelu, gila and menumorut. all three fought the hungarians and by this bought time for Moldavia and Valachia to be born. If any of the mods want to hear me out, i will present materials regarding this matter, with dates,battles,cities.

    one more thing the city of bucharest didnt exist in 1080, it apeared in the late half on the IV century, under the rule of Vlad Tepes (also known as Vlad Dracul or Dracula as many ar more familiar with this and also Dracula ruled Valachia in 3 stages beeing betrayed by Matei Corvine, duke of Transilvania).


    PS: Vlad Tepes did not sucked ppl blood, wasnt a vampire, he punished thieves by impaling them with thick wooden spears, in english his name is: Vlad the Impaler)

  2. #2
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    [sarkasm]Yes, and Sweden didn't exist by 1080 either, but it's predecessor did and it would be very unrealistic to leave out a warring little faction that 600 years later ruled more than half of the Baltic Sea coast!!!!!!!11oneone
    And Stockholm didn't exist in 1080 either but did not appear as town untill the 1250-ies! Include Sweden even though it had no significance what so ever in 1080!!!!11one[/sarkasm]

    PS. The html-code for sarkasm isn't working properly.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    ok if u think that about sweden and if it true no problem, but even before 1080 vlachian population played an important role in the balkans. if you do not know what happened in that area please do not spamm.

  4. #4
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Darn those sarcasm-tags! They apparently don't work...

    Anyway, since you didn't notice that I was being sarcastic: One might wonder what is spam...
    Another put-this-country-in-because-I-live-here-and-it's-important-to-me post (that won't effect anything anyway since the faction list has already been declared) isn't very constructive really. Besides, like so many other minor kingdoms the Romanian factions could easily be represented by rebels instead. I really wonder why all local patritos sign up and head straight for the mod-section to complain about this and that area not being in the mod. Do I sense a conspiracy here?
    It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.

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  5. #5

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    I'd say it's mainly because of general ignorance for "lesser known parts of history in nowadays-popular-culture-determined perception".

    For instance...Since the movie Braveheart came out, Scotland was featured in numerous computer games (MTW2 included) though it was really quite an insignificant kingdom. Yet people nowadas have a much better awareness of what may have gone on in Scotland, which didn't really change the course of European history that much, than they do of what went on in the Balkans or the Iberian penninsula, where eventually the spread of Islam was halted, thus resulting in a Christian Europe...

    Kingdoms that may have been players back then, but are less significant today tend to be overlooked in favour of those that may have or may not have been important then, but are ore influential now. Thus a "Germany" or a "France" are featured in most medieval games, though they were as much a collection of warring little states as the Balkans were...

  6. #6
    Marcus Arbaces Alexandros Member Arbaces's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    I'm working something out, starting to get taste for MTW2 modding. Yesterday I first looked in the paks... I'll do a mod not just with Vlachs.. but I started with them anyway. Even started a logo, but I'm not so happy with the current symbol (below)... it looks to... modern, I think it will work better with the current symbol of the Arges county.

    Vlachs were a very important faction, or... I'd rather say an important shield for Hungary in the late era. But of course the gameplay will be quite hard at the beginning since Hungary always wants to expand in Romania.
    As I'm progressing I might think of Moldova and/or the Transylvanian kingdoms too, but as I said... yesterday I first opened the paks, and looked around, so I've just begun, this is the first time I mention.

    Some concepts would be a good helping hand... hard to find vlach medieval units on the internet, no, I mean impossible.

    Arbaces.

    EDIT: Sorry I haven't noticed is in MTR sub-forum, what I said is not related to MTR, is just about me. Good luck to you guys as well!
    Last edited by Arbaces; 03-03-2007 at 14:31.

  7. #7
    Professional Cynic Member Innocentius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Well, one main difference being that France had one king and the HRE had one emperor. France and the HRE were not warring little states in the same way as the 10+ kingdoms in the Balkans. Sure they had a lot of problems due to the feudal system, but they were still kingdoms. I'm not saying that the Balkans were insignificant, but you just can't put all those 10 little kingdoms in just because they existed. And I'm pretty sure that England, France and Germany had a greater impact on world history in the end...

    Braveheart was released some 5-7 years before MTW was released (it's a pretty bad movie btw). And I'd be careful to say that Scotland was an insignificant kingdom, especially considering what role Scotland played in the Tudor-era and during the civil wars.
    I'd love to see a movie about, let's say the Serbian empire or the Byzantine-Bulgarian wars, and I'd find that much more interesting than Braveheart (given that a talented director gets to do it of course, and one who knows something about history unlike mr Gibson).

    The spread of Islam was stopped somewhere in Anatolia. The Ottoman Turks never expanded simply for conversion, they did it for more politicial and economical reasons. There were plenty of christians in the Balkans even during the Ottoman (muslim) rule.
    It's not easy being a man, you know. I had to get dressed today... And there are other pressures.

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  8. #8
    Marcus Arbaces Alexandros Member Arbaces's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Well, one main difference being that France had one king and the HRE had one emperor. France and the HRE were not warring little states in the same way as the 10+ kingdoms in the Balkans.
    May I add that, while as you said France and HRE were apparently united but still split between the landlords, history has it that while these small Carpathian kingdoms were apparently divided, in case of war they were easily united, as it happened even before Basarab I's rising. I don't know, perhaps it's because of my nationalism as it was said, but since there are 30 slots why not? As whether they are or not in MTR... I... don't really think I care. These were local conflicts however they could've had disastrous consequences to christendom itself if these little barbarian rebels wouldn't have stayed in the path of the Mighty Ottoman empire. You should know what happened with Rovine where the mighty western crusaders got kicked like shit thanks to their tactic. Hell I wish my people wouldn't have stayed against Turks... perhaps now we would've had an Islam as far as Germany or such... hell knows...

    Arbaces.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    well some will take as nationalism, BUT I HAVE STATED THAT A VLACHO BULGARIAN STATE WAS NEEDED NOT THE WHOLE SMALL KINGDOMS. and yeah those small kingdoms did stoped bizantium from expanding further north. they stoped hungary from expanding further east and south. they are important in the late period as well.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Scotland was mainly made a faction because it gives the chance for an alternative outcome in the British Isles as well as cultural variation, I mean how many other factions will have men in kilts. Besides the existence of a faction competing offensively against England makes it more challenging for them to keep their areas in mainland Europe. Also Scotland's independance lasts longer than the original M2TW does. The Romanian factions halting the Ottomans' advance is basically like a strong force of rebels like the Flemish in Antwerp. Scotland has a good oppurtunity to invade England while all the little states in France like Provence and Brittany had no chance of outruling the main French kingdom. Also the Holy Roman Empire might as well be one because all the states that made it were simply insignificant by themselves and it's not like the computer's going to keep the empire knowing how treacherous allies are in Total War games. As for the Romanian factions, one would be enough to create a local conflict with the Hungarians instead of having Hungary competing against Polish and Russian expansion. If, however, Romania is made a faction the Byzantine Empire will very likely eliminate them in the earliest stages of the campaign.
    Until the lion learns to write its own, history will always be in favour of the hunter.

  11. #11
    Marcus Arbaces Alexandros Member Arbaces's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Unless you make them allies of the Byzantium as they historically were. Would be a though challenge anyway!

  12. #12
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Hey hey, if we didn't stop those Turks, Wien would have been a nice turkish city.
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  13. #13
    Kyokushin warrior Member Ultras DVSC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Unfortunately, "those Turks" did not stop at Wallachia, the fate of Vienna was resting in the hands of others.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Shame all these big mods take so much effort. Personally I'd like a whole bunch of RTR type mods all focused on smaller geographical areas so all these less well-known factions (half of which i know nothing about) could be fitted in.
    It's not a map.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Too my knowledge, the romanian kingdoms werent great conquerers in the sense of accumulating land, which is one of the key points of gameplay in MTW2. Although certainly independant (excluding tansylvania), Romanian factions are probably best represented as rebel factions both historically and gemeplay wise, particularly if the Cumans are in the final mod.
    For his betrayal, his eyes were gouged out and molten lead poured in his ears...

  16. #16
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Before starting to conquer, you have to defend what you have. And since we had to defend everything we had because of Cumans, Hungarians, Turks, Serbs.... we couldn't conquer a thing.

    @Ultras

    Actually, if the Romanian medieval leaders didn't stop the Ottomans in Wallachia, Vienna would have been a Turkish province since 1400. Remember Mohacs in 1526?
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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  17. #17

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    What are you saying? That wallachians fought at mohacs!?!?!?
    For his betrayal, his eyes were gouged out and molten lead poured in his ears...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    ... Anyway, regardless of why, the fact remains that none of the romanian kingdoms ever expanded, they remained far smaller then all the playable factions in the game and mod. Total realism is about historical accuracy, and wether it was their fault or not, the romanian kingdoms never posed a threat to the existence of any larger kingdoms, and thus are most accurately represented as rebels.
    For his betrayal, his eyes were gouged out and molten lead poured in his ears...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Hmm, never expanded you say? Well that kinda leaves out a lot of other kingdoms, if that was requirement.

    The HRE didn't expand much during this era, neither did the Roman Empire (Byztantines), the Egyptians, Berbers. France Didn't expand untill the hundred year war, England shrunk around that time. Actually very few of the kingdoms during the medieval age, changed size by any large proportion (Denmark, Rus, Turkey, Spain did grow larger). This was because even if a kingdom lost a war, it didn't have the same consequences as in the Roman era or WW2. However you should judge if it deserves a faction based on uniqueness, how many wars they fought, how important they were during the timeframe etc.

  20. #20
    Kyokushin warrior Member Ultras DVSC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
    Romanian medieval leaders...
    Who? Mircea cel Batran was the only vlach military leader who was able to stop the ottoman forces at the end of the 14th century by using gerilla methods, but in the following two crucial centuries in the fierce warfare on the Balkan then on the borders of Hungary the role of Wallachia was rather unsignificant.

  21. #21
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Try to read more before you make assumptions. What about Vlad Tepes? Mihai the Brave(Mihai Viteazul)? Remember?
    Ja mata, TosaInu. You will forever be remembered.

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    Swords Made of Letters - 1938. The war is looming in France - and Alexandre Reythier does not have much time left to protect his country. A novel set before the war.

    A Painted Shield of Honour - 1313. Templar Knights in France are in grave danger. Can they be saved?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    And stefan the great...

  23. #23
    Kyokushin warrior Member Ultras DVSC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Yeah, Stefan the Great was indeed a great ruler of Moldova in the middle of the 15th century. He managed to preserve the independence of his land from the Ottomans by paying annual taxes, but did not really care about Vienna.

    Ah, the favourite Vlad Tepes. He was only 17 when attacked his own land (Wallachia) as the head of lent Turkish army... On the throne of Wallachia he managed to massacre some smaller Ottoman outpost, than to avoid the direct conflict with the army of Mehmed II but after that he was expelled by his own brother, Radu, who attacked Vlad also with a huge Turkish army. In the end in the jail of King Matthew he could only impale rats and insects...

    Mihai the brave hustled at the end of the 16th century. Buda had been taken by the Ottomans so they were essentially stationing in front of the gates of Vienna. As the ruler of Wallachia, Mihai was a vassal of Zsigmond Bathory (prince of Transylvania), and their united army defeated some Ottoman troops at the Battle of Giurgevo. After that as far is i know Mihai mainly dealt with his personal affairs, rather than fighting against the Muslim oppressors...

    The Ottoman forces tried to attack Vienna several times, but they were never able to seize her. The last and maybe the biggest effort took place in 1683 afaik, called the Battle of Vienna. The defenders consisted of Austrian, Bohemian and German soldiers, while the Ottomans had an army of about 100000 warrior including 15-20000 soldier of Moldova and Wallachia...

  24. #24

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Indeed, however Stefan the Great is way after the time at which MTR ends. Zsigmond Bathory was a transylvanian prince and commanded many victories, there is one problem however with that. He was a HUNGARIAN prince of Transylvania. He and his subjects were magyars in every sense of the world. Transylvania has been part of Hungary for hundreds and hundreds of years, until the end of WW1. The seckler people populated and still partially populate that region, and were considered more Hungarian then any citizen of Esztergom by many, as they spoke a more archaic hungarian dialect. Including Transylvania as a faction is like including... i don't know, too many examples of pointless princedoms are flying through my head to pinpoint one.
    ...Anyway, how could anyone forget Vlad Tepes, however his exploits although memorable, only relate to Wallachia and on a lesser extent Hungary and Turkey on the broad scale of things. Indeed, he did take Wallachia from the puppet Hungarian king, however all his actions after that only really influenced the power of Wallachia, and on a minor scale Turkey and Hungary. Truly he and other warlords were great men, but when you look at all of Europe they only had the level of influence comparable to that of a rebel. They did not take much, if any land, except from other Romanian Feudal lords, and did not influence the progression of society, culture, religion or technology as was the reasoning behind CAs decision to include Milan.
    On the topic of taking land, indeed the HRE etc did not gain much territory that they hadn't already lost, however they still controlled far more land then that of any Romanian, and certainly had greater military power.
    It is for these reasons that i am adament that Wallachia, Moldova, or Transylvania be included as a faction. I believe that they should be represented as rebels and mercenaries, with perhaps some more unique units (like the Bulgarian Brigands for Bulgaria). This is not only historically correct, but bslsncing on the sense of gameplay, as there are already many factions for Hungary to deal with in the Mod such as Cumania and the Rus. Perhaps the inclusuion of Vlad as a very powerful rebel general in the game, but certainly not a faction of itself, that should be left for area specific mods made by people like Arbaces are making.
    For his betrayal, his eyes were gouged out and molten lead poured in his ears...

  25. #25

    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Damn, mistype . When i said Stefan the Great I meant Mihai the Brave, however, Stefan the Grea tis also towards the very end of the Medieval Total Realism Mod, and thus should also be taken out of consideration.
    For his betrayal, his eyes were gouged out and molten lead poured in his ears...

  26. #26
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Problem being...

    a: Bulgarian Brigands are actually a good model for most light infantry in this region for a long time, particularly the Szekely...

    b: ANYTHING that distracts from the Cumans will prevent them from coming down and kicking the crap out of the Crusaders in 1205....
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  27. #27
    Kavhan Member Kavhan Isbul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Mitchell
    Problem being...

    b: ANYTHING that distracts from the Cumans will prevent them from coming down and kicking the crap out of the Crusaders in 1205....
    ...which they never did anyway, for the Crusaders clashed with the army of the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan.

  28. #28
    Rex Pelasgorum et Valachorum Member Rex_Pelasgorum's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    You should really add in a romanian faction.
    Small pre-statal formations belonging to romanians did exist in the carpatho-danubian area.

    They are mentioned countless times in Hungarian Chronicles... they were not that great, but they were powerfull enough to pouse serios problems to Hungaryans when they entered Transylvania.

    There is also strong archeologicall that such romanian states did exists at least from the begining of the IXth century. There is such at least such a romanian fort in western Transylvania (not farr from the actual hungarian border), wich date from this period, and was built to controll the invasions caming from the Pannonian plain (i`ve read an archeologicall review about it, as one of my friends was the first one who dig at the site).

    It`s up your choice whether do you include a romanian faction or not, but at least for the Late Era, you should seriously think about that... you could make them emergent, if you like.There are endless possibilities. Maybe using some batch files like in RTR 7.0 you could include more than 30 factions... and so, make happy everybody
    Dogma nemuririi sufletului îi fãcea curajosi fãrã margini, dispretuitori fatã de orice pericol, poftitori de moarte (apetitus morti) luptãtori cu hotarâre si cu o întreprindere de speriat.
    (Metianus Capella)


  29. #29
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Quote Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
    ...which they never did anyway, for the Crusaders clashed with the army of the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan.


    and if you know that, then you know who Qoja was, and who he was commanding while in Kaloyan's service, right?
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

  30. #30
    Experimental Archaeologist Member Russ Mitchell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Romanian Factions Requierd

    Quote Originally Posted by Rex_Pelasgorum
    They are mentioned countless times in Hungarian Chronicles... they were not that great, but they were powerfull enough to pouse serios problems to Hungaryans when they entered Transylvania.
    Um... not Transylvania... they are definitely there, in Wallachia... but explaining good points and bad points of official Romanian state historiography is, well, not a topic for a gaming board...
    Ngata tsukelan mokwisipiak!

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