alliances

[Irving]

I just wanted to know... who do you people pick...... dutch vs portugese if and when you choose an ally.... if i feel like having guns.. i ususally take the dutch guy because i think that portugese guy is really annoying and RUDE!

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[Shiro]

The Dutch come really late though. I like going with Portugese for the challenge sometimes. Mostly though, I skip out on both of them.

[ShadowKill]

i have always been mori so i never used guns just monks and more monks

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Clan Shades
Shades
You are already dead you just don't know it yet!!

[Irving]

yeah... the portugese have strings attached to their alliances.....christianity..

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Chaos is born from order.
Cowardice is born from bravery.
Weakness is born from strength.
-Sun Tzu

[solypsist]

I think most people opt to go Portuguese during thier first few campaings, and then switch out tactis to try to see what happens during subsequent campaigns by either going Dutch or none.

I know as a seasoned player, I don't feel any pressure to ally with Gaijin since I can do reasonably well with just Japanese units, but my first two or three games I went Christian because the option was presented to me.
I do like the throneroom screens where the Portuguese have a "communication" problem, at least with properly explaining their goals, whereas the Dutch, who arrive 20 yrs later, have it a little better.


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 04-09-2001).]

[Che]

Even game developers are prejudiced, against Catholics and Southern Europeans in this case. That's my theory. I'm half-Iberian, and I'm almost offended. I don't deny that Southern European explorers/missionaries were more often than not horrible people, but they weren't worse than the English and Dutch.

As for the question, I don't usually ally. I haven't learned how to use guns well, arrows work just fine for me. But you don't get that much of an advantage with going Portuguese, timewise, especially if you want the good muskets. So I'd recommend Dutch, unless you have the time and space to worry about Christianity.

[Anssi Hakkinen]

With all due respect, it would seem you are more than "almost" offended, Che-san. I always interpreted the Portuguese emissary's tactlessness as a simple lack of lingual skill, which I think is intended more as amusing than offensive (and it elicited that response from me - but then again, I'm a Protestant ). Note, too, that the "Papist yoke" is nothing but historically portrayed Dutch propaganda, which in itself goes to show how the Dutch motivations are really no more altruistic than those of the Portuguese.

And if someone brings up the crucified priests issue, he shall feel the wrath of the Large Trout.

Going Christian requires notable previous preparations (lots of Shinobi to prevent Ikkô-Ikki revolts), and that was why I *didn't* go Christian in my first games, contrary to Solypsist-san's hypothesis - although I may have read the manual a bit better than the average player. Anyway, guns are not really that useful in the ultra-offensive form of warfare I often find myself committed to. That's why I rarely go with Portuguese guns, unless the point of the campaign is to "have a Christian game for a change". I purchase Dutch Musketeers whenever they're available, but more often that not, I've almost finished with the campaign by the time they arrive.

Guns are, however, great anti-Horde weapons. If you're locked in a stalemate, the arrival of European traders may prove to be just what you needed to stem the tide.

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"...when looking towards the future, we can certainly be worried about what may possibly happen, but what we must be fear the most is the impossible, for therein lie the truly vast disasters."
- Peter Englund

[War Writer]

Quote Originally posted by Irving:
I just wanted to know... who do you people pick...... dutch vs portugese if and when you choose an ally.... if i feel like having guns.. i ususally take the dutch guy because i think that portugese guy is really annoying and RUDE!

[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with this; the Portugal guy I totally ignore; and his guns are not as good as the BRITISH one's.



[This message has been edited by War Writer (edited 04-09-2001).]

[ShaiHulud]

Quote from Anssi

"And if someone brings up the crucified priests issue, he shall feel the wrath of the Large Trout."

Gosh! I think Anssi is threatening to drop his pants! Please, DON'T whip out the Trout!

hehe


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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

[Brown Wolf]

Quote Originally posted by Anssi Hakkinen:
With all due respect, it would seem you are more than "almost" offended, Che-san. I always interpreted the Portuguese emissary's tactlessness as a simple lack of lingual skill, which I think is intended more as amusing than offensive (and it elicited that response from me - but then again, I'm a Protestant ). Note, too, that the "Papist yoke" is nothing but historically portrayed Dutch propaganda, which in itself goes to show how the Dutch motivations are really no more altruistic than those of the Portuguese.

And if someone brings up the crucified priests issue, he shall feel the wrath of the Large Trout.

Going Christian requires notable previous preparations (lots of Shinobi to prevent Ikkô-Ikki revolts), and that was why I *didn't* go Christian in my first games, contrary to Solypsist-san's hypothesis - although I may have read the manual a bit better than the average player. Anyway, guns are not really that useful in the ultra-offensive form of warfare I often find myself committed to. That's why I rarely go with Portuguese guns, unless the point of the campaign is to "have a Christian game for a change". I purchase Dutch Musketeers whenever they're available, but more often that not, I've almost finished with the campaign by the time they arrive.

Guns are, however, great anti-Horde weapons. If you're locked in a stalemate, the arrival of European traders may prove to be just what you needed to stem the tide.

[/QUOTE]

hmmm............
a personal threat


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"Failure is not an option"

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Shai-san, your comeback couldn't have been much more impressive. (And I will provide no instructions on how to interpret that sentence.)

And Wolf-san, that entire issue has been debated to death long ago: I didn't threaten anyone, I just pointed out that anyone foolish enough to bring it up again would certainly be crucified.

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"...when looking towards the future, we can certainly be worried about what may possibly happen, but what we must be fear the most is the impossible, for therein lie the truly vast disasters."
- Peter Englund

[Brown Wolf]

lol
ok whatever

i see what you mean

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"Failure is not an option"

[Brown Wolf]

there is one thing that i never found out, what caused the banning of england, dutch and portugal? seeing as which last semester i studyied some japanese history, i never was told what caused it.
hmmm..........
know any books that i can find to tell me?


(don't worry, i am not starting another war)

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"Failure is not an option"

[Tenchimuyo]

I rather stick with Dutch or no Dutch.

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A great warrior never reveal his true skills....

[Brown Wolf]

i pefer the dutch actually due to the use of gunshops. the churces take too long to build

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"Failure is not an option"

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Wolf-san, the reasons for the banishment of the Europeans are complicated, and this is but a nutshell representation. For more information, you should go visit the History forum.

Anyway, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, who took the reins of Japan after Oda Nobunaga's death, was nowhere near as open to outside influences (European ones especially) as Nobunaga. Xenophobia has always been a fairly common trait in the isolated Japan, and the low-born Hideyoshi wasn't particularly cosmopolitan by any standards.

Firstly, as STW suggests, the relations between the various European traders and emissaries were by no means cordial - not even between Catholics. Hideyoshi granted the Franciscan order a special permission to send missionaries to Kyôtô and Nagasaki in return for some gifts. The Jesuits sternly protested, as they had been granted a Papal "monopoly" over Japan some decades earlier - and this launched a period of inter-order plotting and disputes, which were a fairly common phenomenon in the religious orders' competition for converts in new colonies. This displeased Hideyoshi, who viewed the matter as an unnecessary threat to Japan's internal stability.

Then one Spanish captain put his foot in his mouth by declaring that "The King, my master, starts by sending priests who will win the people's trust; once this is done he will send troops to join forces with the local Christians and the conquest will be easy and complete." It's unknown whether or not the Spanish king had ever considered doing anything like this to Japan, but other countries had done the same thing in China and India earlier, and Hideyoshi was aware of that. In his mind, the 150k-odd Christians of Japan turned into the vanguard of an European invasion force, and in 1587 he issued an order mandating the departure of all foreign religious teachers from Japan within twenty days, on pain of death.

This order was not strictly enforced at first, and many Christians continued to operate in Japan as if nothing had happened - they didn't really even go underground. In 1597 Hideyoshi apparently had some kind of a paranoia attack (those weren't that uncommon in his advanced age). He ordered the arrest of six Franciscan priests and twenty Japanese Christians in Nagasaki and the banishment of all the other foreign priests. Most were not really banished, but managed to hide for a while; those who had been imprisoned were executed, however.

Hideyoshi died soon afterward, and Tokugawa Ieyasu's attitude to the Christians was much more lenient. The disputes between the Jesuits, Dominicans and Franciscans resumed, and it was not until 1622, during the reign of Ieyasu's son, that the real persecution and atrocities started. The successive Shôguns were even more intolerant and xenophobic, for much of the same reasons as Hideyoshi. Under Tokugawa Iemitsu, the Bamboo Curtain finally descended between Japan and the rest of the world, but that's another story...

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"...when looking towards the future, we can certainly be worried about what may possibly happen, but what we must be fear the most is the impossible, for therein lie the truly vast disasters."
- Peter Englund

[Brown Wolf]

i see.......that actually makes sense and it could be (sadly ) that had the catholics stayed, japan would have ended up like south america or china

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"Failure is not an option"